NL MVP Race (thru 60 games)

[Ben Hansen]

Here's my Top 10 MVP race in the National League as of early Friday morning, June 11th, 2004.

<B><U>NL MVP Race</B></U>

1. Barry Bonds, SF (.369-16-34; 34r, .626 OBP, 1.454 OPS)
-<I>Team: 3rd, 2.5 GB...Only 122 AB's and look at those numbers! Juan Pierre leads the NL with 250 AB's, more than double those of Bonds. Give Bonds that number and he projects to .369-33-70. A seventh MVP for Mr. Bonds? I think so.</I>

2. Scott Rolen, StL (.354-16-63; 40r, 1.068 OPS)
-<I>Team: 2nd, 0.5 GB...Leads the world in RBI and is easily the best fielder (along with KGJ) of this group. HOF'er in the making.</I>

3. Sean Casey, Cin (.374-11-43; 45r, 1.038 OPS)
-<I>Team: 1st...On pace to set career-highs in literally every single category. Cooling off lately as averaged has dropped 18 points since two Sundays ago.</I>

4. Albert Pujols, StL (.325-17-40; 53r, 1.082 OPS)
-<I>Team: 2nd, 0.5 GB...Started off ice cold but has been red-hot in recent weeks. Hitting .559 (19-34) with 5 HR and 11 RBI last nine games.</I>

5. Lance Berkman, Hou (.333-14-48; 37r, 1.127 OPS)
-<I>Team: 3rd, 1.5 GB...Isn't this becoming the norm for this guy? Just a sensational hitter.</I>

6. Bobby Abreu, Phi (.299-14-43; 47r, 12 SB, 1.004 OPS)
-<I>Team: 2nd, 2.5 GB...Quite simply, baseball's Most Underrated Player, Period. From an all-around standpoint, not many can match Abreu's talent. Should easily achieve sixth straight 20-20 season.</I>

7. Mike Lowell, Fla (.316-14-38; 38r, .995 OPS)
-<I>Team: 1st...Along with Rolen, the NL's top power hitting third baseman. Should have had a huge year last season before the injury.</I>

8. Jim Thome, Phi (.314-17-37; 34r, 1.080 OPS)
-<I>Team: 2nd, 2.5 GB...The OPS is outstanding as usual because he gets walked so much and hits so many homers. Will always be in the MVP race with those stats.</I>

9. Ken Griffey, Jr., Cin (.254-17-48; 36r, .913 OPS)
-<I>Team: 1st...A lot of people would put Dunn ahead of Griffey but I'm of the opinion that Junior's regained power stroke is the impetus behind the Reds' success this year. His value is astronomical to a team when he's healthy. Needs to get the average up.</I>

10. Adam Dunn, Cin (.251-18-40; 39r, 1.014 OPS)
-<I>Team: 1st...Hmm, Richie Sexon or Adam Dunn as the Rob Deer of the 21st century? Tough call. At least AD gets on base with walks, though, right?</I>

<B><U>Next Six</B></U>

Miguel Cabrera, Fla.; Jeff Kent, Hou; Brian Giles, SD; Paul LoDuca, LA; Pat Burrell, Phi, and Craig Wilson, Pit.

-Ben

[ZONACAT]

It has to be Rolen, not only is he on fire but he has led his team the second best record in the NL and his team will be in first be the end of the weekend in what to me is the toughest division in baseball.

[Crackem]

I vote Rolen right now, with Bonds a close second. However, Moises Alou and Aramis Ramirez need some consideration for keeping the Cubs in it through the injuries. At least one (Alou) should be in the top 10 probably around 7 or 8, and both in the top 16.

[WilmasPimp]

Roger Clemens leads the major leagues in Wins.
Roger Clemens leads the major leagues in ERA.
Roger Clemens is 2nd in the major leagues in Ks.

Roger Clemens is not on Ben Hansen's top 16 list for the NL MVP.

[WilmasPimp]

My vote right now would probably be:

1. S. Rolen
2. R. Clemens
3. S. Casey
4. B. Bonds
5. R. Johnson
6. S. Pujols
7. L. Berkman
8. C. Wilson
9. E. Gagne
10. P. LoDuca

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by WilmasPimp
Roger Clemens leads the major leagues in Wins.
Roger Clemens leads the major leagues in ERA.
Roger Clemens is 2nd in the major leagues in Ks.

Roger Clemens is not on Ben Hansen's top 16 list for the NL MVP.

Pitchers have their own award and I never consider them for MVP.

[WilmasPimp]

So should rookies not be considered for MVP either?

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by WilmasPimp
So should rookies not be considered for MVP either?

Sure, rooks can be considered as long as they're position players who play every day.

The pitchers for Cy Young, every day players for MVP argument is very old and divided. I'm on the side that says the Cy Young is award enough for great pitchers.

Let's be honest here, if it was okay to allow pitchers to win the MVP award, one should win it every single year since they are invariably more valuable on a per game basis than hitters. Like last year, no doubt Eric Gagne should have won it if this had been the case.

My NL Cy Young vote as of now would be:

1. Roger Clemens
2. Carlos Zambrano
3. Randy Johnson
4. Jason Schmidt
5. Ben Sheets
6. Armando Benitez
7. Eric Gagne (75 straight saves and counting...)
8. Danny Graves
9. Tom Glavine
10. Brad Penny

[WilmasPimp]

But your justification for not allowing Pitchers to even be considered for the MVP was because they have their own award.

So which is it?

They have their own award, or because they don't play everyday?

[stewbacka]

7 of those ten play for the same 3 teams. I would give Griffey more credit for the Reds. Thome is it for the Phillies. I would think Clemens and Graves should be getting some pub.

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by WilmasPimp
But your justification for not allowing Pitchers to even be considered for the MVP was because they have their own award.

So which is it?

They have their own award, or because they don't play everyday?

It's both, JJ. Like I said, there are two very distinct sides to this argument and you and I happen to be on opposite sides.

And Stew, I gave credit to Junior as being the real driving force behind the Reds' early success. But with that said, I don't know if we're ever going to see a guy who's hitting just over .250 (and only for about one week now) get into the upper level of an MVP race.

[stewbacka]

Its thru 60 games. Who knows if Griffey will be healthy in Sept. If he is I think Griffey's average is going to climb. In the AL what would we have. Vlad, Manny, Vasquez, KRod, Ortiz, Lee and who else?

[WilmasPimp]

I can understand the argument that pitchers should not be considered for the MVP since they have their own award. That's perfectly understandable. But to suggest that a starting pitcher is automatically far less valuable than a position player is absurd.

Why do pitchers make more money than position players?

Why were 8 of the first 10 players (and 19 of the 30 in the 1st round) taken in the draft pitchers?

An interesting way to size up the NL MVP race would be to ask yourself "if the Red Sox or Yankees could add any player from the NL for the rest of this season who would it be?"

For each team, the likely answer would be Randy Johnson.

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
Let's be honest here, if it was okay to allow pitchers to win the MVP award, one should win it every single year since they are invariably more valuable on a per game basis than hitters.

JJ, just wondering if you missed the above statement from my earlier post. I have no idea where you got that I said pitchers were less valuable than hitters. That would be the dumbest statement a true baseball fan could make.

Again, just to clarify: "since they (pitchers) are <B>invariably</B> more valuable (than hitters)."

-Ben

[Chicat]

The fact that only Crackem has listed Alou as a candidate is a travesty, a sham, and a mockery .... it's a travishamockery!!!

Alou (with some help from Aramis) has carried the Cubs without Prior, Wood, and Sosa for an extended amount of time so far this season. The fact that they are only three games out of first without those guys is a testament to his offense, defense, and leadership. He has put the Cubs on his back and literally carried them. He is definitely first on my list.

[WilmasPimp]

The Bull has done a lot more carrying than Alou this season.

[stewbacka]

Alou's defense? Bat and leadership no doubt cut come on. Then again with Walker, Sosa, Ramirez and Gonzalez I could see how one might be impressed by his D.

[Chicat]

I have seen him make many a diving catch in important situations both this year and last. He might not get to as many balls as he used to, but he still gives 100% on everything that comes his way (unlike other corner outfielders that I can think of ... Manny in particular :D).

[stewbacka]

Him being better then Manny makes him good? The guy has less range the Manny he might go hard after them but his defense in every scouting report or non Cubs media outlet has never been pointed on as anything more then adequate.

[Ben Hansen]

Manny Ramirez is the worst fielder since Jose Canseco. Looks like he doesn't even care out there.

Too bad he's one of the five best hitters in the game because a big part of me wants to not like Manny because of how he's wasting some of his talent.

[stewbacka]

Manny is not that bad. Watching 95% of the Sox games this year I think he has improved. He has been more consistent this year, not saying he is anything more then barely average. I would take him over Gonzo right now.

[Ben Hansen]

I would take Christopher Reeve over Gonzo in leftfield. No joke.

[stewbacka]

Nice one Ben

[Morgan]

wow

[stewbacka]

the wind all night I take back what I said about Manny and this year.

[Chicat]

That play was so ridiculous. Was there any reason why he couldn't make that catch besides the fact that he was thinking about telling his agent that he'll gladly play for the minimum as long as the Yankees trade for him? He will never be an MVP candidate for me because he makes no attempt to even appear to care about whether his team wins or not.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
Here's my Top 10 MVP race in the National League as of early Friday morning, June 11th, 2004.



2. Scott Rolen, StL (.354-16-63; 40r, 1.068 OPS)
-<I>Team: 2nd, 0.5 GB...Leads the world in RBI and is easily the best fielder (along with KGJ) of this group. HOF'er in the making.</I>


9. Ken Griffey, Jr., Cin (.254-17-48; 36r, .913 OPS)
-<I>Team: 1st...A lot of people would put Dunn ahead of Griffey but I'm of the opinion that Junior's regained power stroke is the impetus behind the Reds' success this year. His value is astronomical to a team when he's healthy. Needs to get the average up.</I>



Good list, but way off base on saying KGJ is still a great fielder. In his prime, he was a joy to watch, but due to fear of injury, he no longer hustles in the field. He jogs after balls, and refuses to dive. On the DP show the other day, Dibble was reading some stats that had to deal with range, and Griffey ranked dead last out of all the starting CF in the NL. Another thing that's bothering me about Griffey is his overall lack of hustle. Twice last week he stopped to pose at the plate after what he thought were HR's didn't go out. One didn't even hit the wall on the fly. In both cases, he turned sure doubles into singles.

[stewbacka]

Chicats

A. Everyone that follows baseball knows his act would not go over any better in the Bronx, Shea or Philly
B. Its impossible that Manny let alone an agent would fork over 100 million
C. Manny thinking?

I know you are trying get me going but you can do better.

[MinorThreat22]

More about Griffey. He's dead last in all the qualifying major league CF's with Zone Rating of .776, and 5th to last in Range Factor at 2.28

[stewbacka]

I think I follow baseball very well. I don't buy into a lot of stats but I don't discount them all either. What is Zone Rating and Range Factor and how are they determined? If they are what I think I would to see Sandberg's. Also If you are talking about Friday night Griffey did pose twice but did get a double on one of them.

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by MinorThreat22
More about Griffey. He's dead last in all the qualifying major league CF's with Zone Rating of .776, and 5th to last in Range Factor at 2.28

If I'm the Reds all I care about is Griffey staying healthy for the year. He can go 75% all he wants in the outfield if it means not tearing another hammy or breaking his wrist the way he used to on those spectacular catches up against the Kingdome wall.

He's more than proven he's one of the three or four best fielders ever in CF so he can "not hustle" now and be fine. Better than losing him for the rest of another season. This is not hard to figure out.

[Irish27]

Rolen is my pick.

[Crackem]

Griffey is very average in the field now. A few weeks back I was watching some show and it focused on Jr. in his Seattle days. I had almost forgotten how great he was and what a joy to watch. He alone was worth the price of admission those days. Its a shame injuries robbed us of a lot of the joy of watching Grif play. I always heard stories about Mantle and how the injuries eroded his game. I think Jr. is much the same.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
If I'm the Reds all I care about is Griffey staying healthy for the year. He can go 75% all he wants in the outfield if it means not tearing another hammy or breaking his wrist the way he used to on those spectacular catches up against the Kingdome wall.

He's more than proven he's one of the three or four best fielders ever in CF so he can "not hustle" now and be fine. Better than losing him for the rest of another season. This is not hard to figure out.

I'm not arguing that point. You said along with Rolen that they were the best fielders of the group, and obviously, Griffey is no longer even an average fielder.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by stewbacka
I think I follow baseball very well. I don't buy into a lot of stats but I don't discount them all either. What is Zone Rating and Range Factor and how are they determined? If they are what I think I would to see Sandberg's. Also If you are talking about Friday night Griffey did pose twice but did get a double on one of them.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/stats3.shtml

The stats are sortable at both ESPN.com, and MLB.com

[Ben Hansen]

Originally posted by MinorThreat22
I'm not arguing that point. You said along with Rolen that they were the best fielders of the group, and obviously, Griffey is no longer even an average fielder.

Obviously no longer even an average fielder??? Let's not mistake him no longer being the old KGJ for him being below average in center here. Again, if he's not going all-out for the purpose of avoiding injury I think he gets that allowance based upon past excellence.

His range may not be there as much but his glove and arm are still fine.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
Obviously no longer even an average fielder??? Let's not mistake him no longer being the old KGJ for him being below average in center here. Again, if he's not going all-out for the purpose of avoiding injury I think he gets that allowance based upon past excellence.

His range may not be there as much but his glove and arm are still fine.

Dude, give it up already. Yes, Griffey catches every ball that's hit right to him. So do Craig Biggio, and Alex Sanchez and nobody is calling them great fielders. There's a lot more to being a good fielder than catching balls that you don't have to run down. If that were the case, every OF would be equal except for maybe ManRam. While his fielding used to be exceptional, his arm has always been average. Past excellence has nothing to do with him being a great fielder. He used to be great. Maybe he has the ability to be great again, maybe he doesn't, but the fact is that even if he has the ability, he's not using it.

[Ben Hansen]

You're out of your mind. Griffey always had a terrific arm for a centerfielder. Always. He and Jay Buhner in the outfield made it so that no one went first to third very often when playing the M's. Stop looking at obscure stats and formulas and just watch baseball. It helps.

[stewbacka]

Originally posted by MinorThreat22
Yes, Griffey catches every ball that's hit right to him. So do Craig Biggio, and Alex Sanchez and nobody is calling them great fielders.

Someone tried to use that logic on Alou

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
You're out of your mind. Griffey always had a terrific arm for a centerfielder. Always. He and Jay Buhner in the outfield made it so that no one went first to third very often when playing the M's. Stop looking at obscure stats and formulas and just watch baseball. It helps.

1. The stats aren't obscure. There in every major stat site around. ESPN, MLB, Baseball America, and even Baseball-Reference for that matter.

2. How many baseball games/yr do you actually watch? I'd be willing to bet, no strike that, I'll guarantee that I watch/have watched more than you. As big a fan that you are of NCAA basketball, is how big a fan I am of MLB. I am a baseball geek, and freely admit it. You've proven my point by trumpeting Griffey as a great defender THIS YEAR. That statement alone assures me that you haven't even watched the Reds play this season. Rather than make condescending statements about other's baseball knowledge, why not back your point up with facts?

[Ben Hansen]

Things I've said:

Griffey has always been a great fielder.

Griffey is preserving his health - for good reason - and if that means pulling up on some plays in center this year, so be it. I'll take that trade off any day for his bat in the lineup. That's why he's an MVP candidate.

Griffey had and still has a very good arm. That is a fact. You were wrong.

Griffey is not below average in the outfield even now. A lesser player for certain, but calling him below average is not true at all. You're just stuck trying to stand behind a point you've made now.

Things you've said:

I love stats. I am a baseball geek. I watch too much baseball on TV. I guarantee I know more than you...

Congratulations, Damon Minor. You are the King of Baseball on this site.

I have no doubt whatsoever you watch more baseball on TV than I do, either. That's not necessarily something to be proud of, however.

One word, Damon: females.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen

I love stats. I am a baseball geek. I watch too much baseball on TV. I guarantee I know more than you...

Congratulations, Damon Minor. You are the King of Baseball on this site.

I have no doubt whatsoever you watch more baseball on TV than I do, either. That's not necessarily something to be proud of, however.

One word, Damon: females.

How did I know this was coming? You spend quite a bit of time following High School Kids around from camp to camp, establishing relationships with these youngsters, and following college basketball in general, yet I need to get a life because I follow baseball religiously. You know I almost put your response after mine because I knew it was inevitable. When you have no argument to make, why not resort to insults? Where the Damon part is coming from I have no idea, as my name is Brandon. I can only assume that you're throwing the females comment out there to see if I am in fact a homosexual. Maybe your "relationship" is a clever ruse, and perhaps you're looking for an internet love connection. Unfortunately, I am hapily married to a lovely woman, but I'm flattered by your interest.

[Ben Hansen]

I get paid to follow the sports I follow. And where you got that I was insinuating you were gay is beyond me. I was saying spend more time with the ladies than watching sports, Brandon.

[MinorThreat22]

Originally posted by Ben Hansen
I get paid to follow the sports I follow.

I guess you're the only one.:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Ben Hansen
And where you got that I was insinuating you were gay is beyond me

Not quite my meaning, but oh well.