PDA

View Full Version : Phil Jackson proves just how overrated a coach he is...


WayneNewton
06-15-2004, 11:20 PM
... What was the deal with Bryon Russel at power forward? I know in certain situations you need to use all the tricks in the bag, but that was a horrible move. If you're gonna have the balls to make a stupid move like that then the guy you put at that spot is Walton, not Russel.

Larry Brown outcoached Jackson more than any coach has ever outcoached another. Notice the multiple set plays the Pistons run to the Lakers one play, the triangle. Notice how Brown never sits the whole game and constantly is coaching. Notice the "Zen master" sitting on his ass the whole game just hoping that his talent will win it for him. Jackson wanted to beat Auerbach to considered the best coach in the history of the league. He'll never be in same viscinty as Auerbach or even Larry Brown.

The team, coach, and players that deserved to win won this title. Unlike Jordan and Pip, Kobe and Shaq, a coach was actually involved with this title.

TakiCat
06-16-2004, 12:33 AM
Amen brotha. If he were to, say, take over the Bulls again next year and coach them to 20+ wins, that achievement alone would be more impressive than any of his 9 rings.

Merkin
06-16-2004, 12:44 AM
Phil finally realized that he can't coach Kobe, and Kobe took them out of it. Kove is a great player, but failed in the finals.

Phil is still a great coach, took a bunch of me-first players to the NBA finals, and lost against a real team. Good going Phil.

And remember the Lakers before Phil? Kurt Rambis as coach? Who turned the same players around and made them champions?

WayneNewton
06-16-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Merkin
Who turned the same players around and made them champions?

Steve Lavin just happened to take UCLA to 5 straight Sweet 16s, does that make him a good coach?

Until Phil can win without the Jordans and Pippens, and the Kobes and Shaqs, his "coaching" will always be the second of all to his talented players.

Don't take it from me. Red Auerbach said it himself.

aaa
06-16-2004, 02:21 AM
"Phil finally realized that he can't coach Kobe, and Kobe took them out of it. Kove is a great player, but failed in the finals."

What are you talking about man? Theres no way you can put the loss on Kobe (whom I hate by the way). The loss should and will be placed squarely on the shoulders of every Laker not named Kobe or Shaq.

Detroit just proved that two special players and 3 scrubs (payton and malone play like scrubs now) can't beat a great TEAM.

Tolbert had it right, the lakers didnt mess up, they got fuked-up, by the Pistons that is.

budd1e_lee
06-16-2004, 03:49 AM
how can you not blame it on kobe, he shot them out of game 4, shaq was like 16/21 and kobe was 8/25.... WHY WAS HE STILL SHOOTING?!?! feed the big man the damn ball, they were up at the half, and were okay until kobe got back in the game half way through the 4th.

UofAcat23
06-16-2004, 03:54 AM
apparently you don't realize that Kobe is the next Jordan. ;)

budd1e_lee
06-16-2004, 05:29 AM
"Quit saying Kobe is as good as Jordan. Kobe's a good little player, but he's no Michael Jordan. Kobe is not Michael Jordan. Period." -Charles Barkley

this was said this week at the annual celbrity golf event that the chuckster plays in

Auercat
06-16-2004, 08:34 AM
:)

Bearing Down on The Lakers Being Back Next Season

Auercat

markmcb
06-16-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by WayneNewton
Steve Lavin just happened to take UCLA to 5 straight Sweet 16s, does that make him a good coach?

Until Phil can win without the Jordans and Pippens, and the Kobes and Shaqs, his "coaching" will always be the second of all to his talented players.

Don't take it from me. Red Auerbach said it himself.

Well, Red Auerbach coached a bunch of scrubs himself, didn't he? For Red to make those kind of comments is pathetic. I think that Red had coached more hall of fame players in his time than any other coach in NBA history. You need to have talent to win a title.

The fact is, Phil is a great coach. Did he get out-coached in this series? Sure, but that doesn't make him a bad coach. Again, look at the Lakers the year before Phil got there. They were swept out of the playoffs by SA. The next year, they won the title, with virtually the same team. I don't see how anyone can deny that Phil is a good coach.

Cheers,
Mark

CatMG
06-16-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Auercat
:)

Bearing Down on The Lakers Being Back Next Season

Auercat

They may be back but will they be recognizable?

Merkin
06-16-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by CatMG
They may be back but will they be recognizable?

Dump the whole team except for Luke and rebuild around him. He never gave up, and is the ultimate team player.

And Phil makes good teams great. Larry Brown has a very storied history of making bad teams good, and has finally learned how to make a good team great.

WildcatPaulG
06-16-2004, 11:57 AM
Bearing Down on The Lakers Being Back Next Season

Bearing down on the Lakers being back in the draft lottery next season, possibly? Kobe-less, Zenmaster-less, Malone-less, Payton-less... I don't see this team riding Shaq to any sort of playoff appearance...

barringer97
06-16-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by SaltLakeWildcat
Bearing down on the Lakers being back in the draft lottery next season, possibly? Kobe-less, Zenmaster-less, Malone-less, Payton-less... I don't see this team riding Shaq to any sort of playoff appearance...


You can have Shaq with Ben Hansen, BJBJ, Wilmas Pimp and myself and we would still go to the playoffs..

DC Cat
06-16-2004, 12:17 PM
Getting rid of Payton would be the best move they could make. Are Payton's skills still marketable? He is no longer a top 5 point guard and his attitude sucks (always has).

I have to agree that the blame goes to everyone not named Kobe and Shaq...Detroit had just about every single person on that team step up. But the Lakers? Derek Fisher is still talking about the "shot that now means absolutely jack sh!t", Rush is still wishing he had hit that last 3 to go 7-7 in the conf. finals, Rick Fox is primping for a new Sketchers ad while wondering who is at his house with his wife while his sorry azz sits on the bench at Staples. Luke showed that he can play in the league, but really had one solid game, so I'm not going to homer everyone to death on it being the Luke Show from now on.

I think the Lakers should go after JT...he would get Diesel the ball, he can score, the LA fans would LOVE him.

DC Cat

WildcatPaulG
06-16-2004, 12:25 PM
You can have Shaq with Ben Hansen, BJBJ, Wilmas Pimp and myself and we would still go to the playoffs..

True... because you guys would step up, or anyone for that matter, would step up and actually play to your abilities, rather than piss and moan about your knee or jack the ball up everytime you touch it ala Kobe...

F Duke
06-16-2004, 12:55 PM
This was not Kobe or Phil Jackson's fault. Had Karl Malone not been injured, I think you'd see a totally different series. The Pistons might have still won it but it would have been much closer.

killervibe
06-16-2004, 01:34 PM
I recently read an article where Red Auerbach was calling Phil Jackson out. He basically said Phil was a decent coach with great players but that he lacked the skill to build a team.

Its a great read, I highly recommend it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=wojnarowski_adrian&id=1819936

UofAcat23
06-16-2004, 02:31 PM
Hey! Phil Jackson is an Elite 11 Coach. :mad:

Flipper
06-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by UofAcat23
Hey! Phil Jackson is an Elite 11 Coach. :mad:

Jackson took over the Bulls, and with the same players won 6 championships. Could have been more, if MJ hadn't missed those 2 years playing baseball, or retired 2 years early.

He then took over the Lakers, then immediately won 3 times.

It takes coaching to mold these egotistical millionaires into cohesive units good enough to win championships. He did just that. His biggest problem with the Lakers was that he butted heads with Jerry West. West, being the team player/consumate pro that he is, didn't make a stink, and just moved on.

With West at the helm, I don't think the Lakers would have gotten the "older than the hills" HOF's for this season.

Jackson couldn't handle the egos this season, and voila, a recipe for disaster. Well, not that making the Finals is all bad, but for the Lakers, it is disappointing.

WayneNewton
06-16-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Flipper
Jackson took over the Bulls, and with the same players won 6 championships. Could have been more, if MJ hadn't missed those 2 years playing baseball, or retired 2 years early.

Exactly! Phil can't win it without major talent.

budd1e_lee
06-16-2004, 05:27 PM
and red won without talent....

has anyone really won without major talent? you could make a case for the pistons, but they have some real up and comers that just havent shined yet and this was their jumping off point, they have talent, you dont win without it

Flipper
06-16-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by budd1e_lee
and red won without talent....

has anyone really won without major talent? you could make a case for the pistons, but they have some real up and comers that just havent shined yet and this was their jumping off point, they have talent, you dont win without it

Agree. Gotta have talent to win NBA championships. And coaching. Too many things can go wrong/exploited by other teams if you don't have talent and coaching.

Pistons have major talent. Rasheed always has had top 10 talent, Billups/Hamilton has played well in recent years and are starting to knock on the door of greatness. Add in the consumate defenders/all around players in BenW and up and coming Prince, along with a productive/deep bench.

Dumars put the team together, and Brown coached the heck out of this team. Great end to their year. They didn't really take off until RWallace joined the team. His talent complemented Ben down low, which freed up the two guards for their jumpers.

RubenD
06-16-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by WayneNewton
... What was the deal with Bryon Russel at power forward? I know in certain situations you need to use all the tricks in the bag, but that was a horrible move. If you're gonna have the balls to make a stupid move like that then the guy you put at that spot is Walton, not Russel.

Larry Brown outcoached Jackson more than any coach has ever outcoached another. Notice the multiple set plays the Pistons run to the Lakers one play, the triangle. Notice how Brown never sits the whole game and constantly is coaching. Notice the "Zen master" sitting on his ass the whole game just hoping that his talent will win it for him. Jackson wanted to beat Auerbach to considered the best coach in the history of the league. He'll never be in same viscinty as Auerbach or even Larry Brown.

The team, coach, and players that deserved to win won this title. Unlike Jordan and Pip, Kobe and Shaq, a coach was actually involved with this title.


I can't believe I'm defending the Lakers, but...

Jackson wouldn't have had to use Bryon Russell (or Walton) if Karl Malone was healthy.

The series might have had a completely different result had Malone been healthy and if more than 4 Lakers wanted to win (Shaq, Kobe, Fish and Walton).

Jackson IS a GREAT coach. I don't care how much talent you have, 9 titles don't just fall into your lap. Maybe 1 title does, but not 9.

Jordan never won a title until Phil was his coach.
Kobe never won a title until Phil was his coach.
Shaq never won a title until Phil was his coach.

And I'm not a Lakers fan.

killervibe
06-16-2004, 06:35 PM
I think Auerbachs point about Jackson is that he isnt the kind of coach that could build a team. Of course it takes major talent to win an NBA championship.. but could Jackson take a team like the Suns and build them into a Championship team?

I doubt it.

TakiCat
06-16-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by budd1e_lee
and red won without talent....

has anyone really won without major talent? you could make a case for the pistons, but they have some real up and comers that just havent shined yet and this was their jumping off point, they have talent, you dont win without it

Red's teams definitely had talent, but it was talent he: a) developed, b) drafted, or c) traded for. He didn't inherit a loaded gun as Philip had. All of Philip's teams had the major pieces in place before his arrival, unlike Red.

Flipper
06-16-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by killervibe
I think Auerbachs point about Jackson is that he isnt the kind of coach that could build a team. Of course it takes major talent to win an NBA championship.. but could Jackson take a team like the Suns and build them into a Championship team?

I doubt it.

KV,

Jackson's a coach, not a GM. Well, outside of the West fiasco.

Anyway, GM's build teams, coaches coach.
With the Pistons, Dumars put the team together, Brown coached.
With the Lakers, West built, Riley coached.
Lakers II, West built (Kupchack assisted), Jackson coached.
Bulls, Krause built, Jackson coached.

Maybe Auerbach is alluding to the fact that in those days, he was the GM and also coached some of those teams. That will be tough today. Red's double duty will be hard to match.

killervibe
06-16-2004, 07:18 PM
Flipper in what world does the GM of a successful team add or remove players without a coaches input?

It doesnt exist.

budd1e_lee
06-16-2004, 10:13 PM
Phil simply doesnt like to hang around anywhere long enough to build, who knows if he has the ability, Im not going to assume one way or another, but he doesnt have the desire and willingness to do it. But that shouldnt take anything away from the man, he has afterall won 9 titles. Larry Brown has proved that taking a bad team to the championship is damn near impossible, but taking a good team to the great status and winning the title is a bit easier, which is what LB had to do to get his title. Like I said, take nothing away from Phil the coach, he can flat out coach, maybe not the X's and O's, tex is the man for that, but he makes guys work together, from kobe and shaq, all the way back to Rodman and anyone he came in contact with.