Nash to the Suns

[killervibe]

This isnt an NCAA basketball thing but what the hell.. no one uses the NBA board anyways...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1833028


Why the Suns would pick a second tier gaurd in Nash is beyond me. They get rid of Kidd then Maubury and now we have an out of control nut who cant play more than 35 minutes a game.

Its going to be another long year.

[Chicat]

You would have thought that they would have at least talked to Kobe instead of throwing out a contract on the first day possible.

[ZONACAT]

5 years ,65 million is too much for a 30 year old guard that breaks down as the season goes along.

Although i'll miss Nash, Im kinda glad Cuban didnt match the offer.

Mavs are going to look very different next year...

Suns are still a second tier Western conference team after this deal.

[barringer97]

How do you get Shaq now?

"Cuban will never let Nash and Dirk go, that would piss off the Mavs fan base too much!"

-ZonaCat, June 2004

[Merkin]

I like Nash, and think is girlfriend is really hot, but that is an awful lot of money for an old white dude. Shaq is old too, but he is still big. Can't argue with 8.8 assists per game, especially against only 2.68 TO. Nash has only 2.15 TO per game career.

I have followed his career ever since he killed the Cats in the NCAAs. Sad sad day.

[ZONACAT]

Originally posted by barringer97
How do you get Shaq now?

"Cuban will never let Nash and Dirk go, that would piss off the Mavs fan base too much!"

-ZonaCat, June 2004

We dont, but you dont keep Kobe either......

And I meant Nash and Dirk as in together, I knew Nash would not be a Mav next year no matter what. I just thought he would get packaged....But I didnt know the Suns would blow the bank on him either...unreal.

[barringer97]

Originally posted by ZONACAT
We dont, but you dont keep Kobe either......


Where is Kobe going to play then...?

The only place I thought that he would was Phoenix...scratch them off the list.

Clippers? I doubt it...maybe if they move to the Pond (10 minutes from Kobe's house), but that ain't going to happen.

Nuggets? He'll avoid Colorado at all cost.

Jazz? Doubt it.

No other teams have space. I doubt Mitch would do a sign and deal.

[ZONACAT]

San Antonio....


You are kidding yourself if you think Shaq and Kobe are going to be on the same team next year...

Either way, one of them will be out.....Buss's choice. But Dirk is definately not leaving now, not after this.

Shaq's wife is pushing for Dallas, and soon Shaq might just say Dallas or bust.....I dont see Sacramento giving up much to get him unless you take on Webber's stupid contract.

[barringer97]

Originally posted by ZONACAT
San Antonio....


You are kidding yourself if you think Shaq and Kobe are going to be on the same team next year...

Either way, one of them will be out.....Buss's choice. But Dirk is definately not leaving now, not after this.

Shaq's wife is pushing for Dallas, and soon Shaq might just say Dallas or bust.....I dont see Sacramento giving up much to get him unless you take on Webber's stupid contract.

So is it Kobe or Shaq? Kobe will not go to San Antonio...nobody wants to play there...especially Kobe. He wants to be the MAN.

Shaq might be gone, but he ain't going to Dallas...not without Dirk.

Maybe the Warriors if they deal Dampier, Murphy, and Cap space (van excel and cliff robinson)...but I doubt Shaq wants to play in the Bay Area.

[ZONACAT]

Golden State has to be a definate player but Shaq will refuse to go. I think Shaq might take a "Francis" move and choose where he wants to play. Whether its Dallas or not he HAS to be moved...

If he isnt, I bet Kobe seriously thinks about going to SA...I know they are already trying to schedule a trip.....Kobe would rather play with Duncan than with a unhappy Shaq. I think we can agree on that.

[BibbysTowelDude]

Didn't Dampier just opt out of his contract? If I were him I'd say screw it and not deal with a sign and trade anywhere.

[barringer97]

Originally posted by BibbysTowelDude
Didn't Dampier just opt out of his contract? If I were him I'd say screw it and not deal with a sign and trade anywhere.

He can get more money with a sign and trade...he can also play for a team like the Lakers, even though they have no cap space.

[argaen]

Nice to see the Suns wasting their money and giving out ridiculous contracts.

The Suns are starting suck like the Cardinals.

[Lion6877]

Well when you have the 2nd worst record in the Western Conference you have to do something. Nash fits in perfectly with what the Suns like to do. RUN! A lot of money, but with the addition of Nash, Phoenix will be a lot better next season. Especially with how good Johnson was after the Marbury trade. Look for Suns to make the playoffs next year. This was not that bad of a deal for the Suns like some of ya'll are putting it.

[okelydokely]

Same old Suns. 15 million on a decent but not great point guard for the next 5 years. Ridiculous.

Shaq will probably stay in LA, he has 2 years left on his contract and probably only 3 good years left. The only reason to trade him is to keep Kobe. LA will figure out a way to appease Kobe to stay and to keep Shaq in LA. A disgruntled Shaq in LA is better than a motivated Shaq in Sacramento or Dallas.

[davoaz]

Suns are famous for bringing in old has beens. I'm suprised they don't package up Amare and Marion to see if they can get 1 or 2 more years out of Shaq.

[budd1e_lee]

The lakers are going to lose both Shaq AND kobe if they arent careful, they HAVE to move Shaq if there is any hope of resigning Kobe. They will not play together next year, and the longer they hold off on a Shaq deal the more likely Kobe signs elsewhere.... ANYWHERE that Shaq isnt.

Shaq's issues with the Lakers extend beyond Kobe to the management, he has made it known before that he doesn't like the way they've dealt with contract extensions, both his and Phil's, and I think even if Kobe's not around he'll seriously consider sitting next year if they don't move him, ESPECIALLY if the bring in RAT FACE.

[Taylor]

Somebody needs to give Shaq a pacifier and tell him to shut the **** up. Nobody likes a 360 pound crybaby.

[budd1e_lee]

I usually think Shaq is a complete idiot, although in this instance I think he is right, if he is indeed demanding a trade because of dissagreements with management instead of losing, like T-mac and his cousin 'half-man half-injured list'

[Merkin]

I agree with Shaq, with Kupchek and Buss saying "we will do anything to keep Kobe" you know that Shaq is not in their future. With such disprespect, Shaq has to go. Kobe is an ass, but he is only 25. Shaq is old, fat and lazy. He could have been the greatest ever.

I wish they would both go, and take Payton and Malone with them so I can start liking the Lakers again, as long as ratface is not their coach.

[budd1e_lee]

hey, at least the mavs still have 2 guys over 7'5".... not that either of them can play a lick

http://img33.photobucket.com/albums/v101/budd1e_lee/2598506749551474.jpg

[barringer97]

That's the scariest picture I have ever seen...

[ZONACAT]

Everytime I see that picture, I want to drive to Dallas and kick Cuban in the balls......

[budd1e_lee]

Pavel's got a head like a damn horse

[davoaz]

WiiiiiilllllllllbeR.

Lakers don't need shaq or kobe. They going to have Coach K.

[killervibe]

Its like looking at a scene from LOTR. Cuban looks like a hobbit.

[Chicat]

Speaking of hobbits, your avatar girlfriend reminds me of Golum. I honestly have nightmares about her KV.

[killervibe]

Believe me, she has a hot body.

[Chicat]

I'll take your word for it KV. Please, whatever you do, don't post a picture to prove your point. :(

[ZONACAT]

What other owner or GM would do this??

His side of the Nash story, very interesting....I don't feel bad about losing Nash at all after reading Cuban's side of the story. BTW Duffy is a a-hole.

Cuban weblog on Nash (http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/6721616637326928/)

[Merkin]

Originally posted by ZONACAT
What other owner or GM would do this??

His side of the Nash story, very interesting....I don't feel bad about losing Nash at all after reading Cuban's side of the story. BTW Duffy is a a-hole.

Cuban weblog on Nash (http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/6721616637326928/)

I have to think about whether or not I want to hang with this guy: and another guy who goes out with us wearing a shirt that says “I F**ked Your Boyfriend”?

[RimShakUr]

Good lord guys Nash got 6yrs/60M$ with the last year not even guaranteed and you are writing about how he is getting the max or 15M$ a season? Are you serious.

It's a good price for a 30yrd old PG in his prime. Why shouldn't he be playing until his late 30s? His game won't go away because of age. Look at John Stockton he was a very good PG until his 40s because he was fundamentaly sound and didn't rely on athleticism at all.

Nash hardly missed any games at all over the last 3 seasons.

Enough about the Suns now.

Wildcats NCAA championship in 2005, Suns Pacific Division Winner in 2005.

[Merkin]

And speaking of Stockton:


SALT LAKE CITY -- The Utah Jazz will retire John Stockton's No. 12 in November, honoring the point guard that spent his entire 19-year career with the team.

Stockton, the NBA career leader in assists and steals, retired after the 2002-03 season.

"We are excited to honor John in this special way," Jazz owner Larry Miller said in a statement. "We look forward to hosting him and his family on Nov. 22. The evening will certainly be memorable."

Stockton will be honored during the Utah game against the New Orleans Hornets.

Stockton's No. 12 will be the sixth number retired by the Jazz, who have also honored former coach Frank Layden with the No. 1 and former players Pete Maravich (No. 7), Darrell Griffith (No. 35), Mark Eaton (No. 53) and Jeff Hornacek (No. 14).

[tstein7240]

This isnt an NCAA basketball thing but what the hell.. no one uses the NBA board anyways...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1833028


Why the Suns would pick a second tier gaurd in Nash is beyond me. They get rid of Kidd then Maubury and now we have an out of control nut who cant play more than 35 minutes a game.

Its going to be another long year.


How times change :)

Figured a good time to bump the thread... after 2 MVP awards for the 2nd-tier guard.

(NOTE: Not bagging on KV for this... I thought that Nash wouldn't stay healthy like he has the last 2 years)

[ASUHATER!]

haha 2nd tier. good one kv.

[killervibe]

Kidd is a top three all-time PG. Nash isnt. Getting rid of Kidd was incredibly stupid regardless of how well Nash is playing.

[Itamicbomb]

Top three all-time? Really?

Better than Johnson, Stockton, and/or Payton (just the first three I thought of)?

[barringer97]

Didn't Nash just win 2 MVP's? :confused:

[JMarkJohns]

Kidd is the most overrated PG of the last 20 years.

I'll fight ya, if you want a fight...

In my mind it's a debate that's not even close.

[JMarkJohns]

Kidd is the most overrated PG of the last 20 years.

I'll fight ya, if you want a fight...

In my mind it's a debate that's not even close.

Qualifying, he's a very good PG that has had some pretty good success, but most of his success has come against the crappiest teams in the weakest conference in the NBA of the last 20 years.

He was a very good PG that happened to be the best of a very weak lot between he, Payton, Nash and Marbury...

Of them, only Payton is a HOF calibur player and he's borderline, IMO...

Compare this to the previous generation of Johnson, Stockton, Thomas, Johnson, Price... all of which had much better stats and much better success in a much tougher conference and time of play.

[killervibe]

I'm trying to remember.. how many Championship series has Nash led his team (any team) to? And how many Championship series has Kidd led his team too? Oh thats right..

[alieberman]

The difference between Nash and Kidd is Nash can actually shoot the ball.

[JMarkJohns]

How many playoff series did Kidd win out WEST?

None. Absolute ZERO... Nada, zip, zilch...

It took a move out to the "Leastern Conference" where teams still make the playoffs with a sub-.500 record for him to win his first series.

Please. During his prime the guy routinely led the League in TO's, while shooting around, if not under 40% from the field.

He's a very good PG, but being the best amongst an average class by historical standards doesn't mean he's great.

IMO, he's a borderline HOF and he's only that because of hype.

[Morgan]

Didn't the Suns beat the Spurs with Kidd?

[ZONACAT]

I'm trying to remember.. how many Championship series has Nash led his team (any team) to? And how many Championship series has Kidd led his team too? Oh thats right..

Are you seriously trying to argue this angle? Everyone knows it was like the early 90's when the Cowboys and Niners would play, winner won the right to route Buffalo in the Super Bowl. The East was the same way, Nash has led his team to two Western (NFC) conference championship series, and that is saying a lot. I don't remember the Nets putting up much of a fight in the finals.

[Itamicbomb]

I'm trying to remember.. how many Championship series has Nash led his team (any team) to? And how many Championship series has Kidd led his team too? Oh thats right..

I didn't realize we were passing out awards for almost making it. Nash took a mediocre Suns team and made them the most explosive offensive team in the NBA, Kidd took a decent Nets team and made them decent. Congrats, he made it through a weak East to get crushed by the Lakers. No way Kidd even sniffs the top 20 point guards ever, much less top three.

[Zero]

nash ripped the refs in the post game interview

haha

[JMarkJohns]

You put Nash on that Nets team and they pose a much greater threat to both the Lakers and the Spurs.

[JMarkJohns]

Didn't the Suns beat the Spurs with Kidd?

No. He was out with a broken ankle until the final game of that series. Kevin Johnson came out of retirement and led the Suns at the point that year.

[PhatKat]

Picked this up from HoopsVibe

Jason Kidd vs. Steve Nash

The Intangibles
 
Both have the uncanny ability to deliver pinpoint passes to players who weren’t aware they were open themselves. Both have mastered the art of throwing the alley-oop, and both are 3D (drive, draw and dish) threats the second they set foot on the floor. However, both are also deficient in a key aspect of the game. For Nash, it’s his defence, which is poor enough that, while playing alone, his shadow often beats him to the bucket. For Kidd, it’s the lack of a J that led to his being dubbed “Ason”, an inexcusable weakness in an age when every team has a shooting coach.
 
The Verdict
 
This one is harder than you’d think. For many, Nash would be the reflex answer for the simple fact that he has an MVP trophy to his name, but this ignores that he played for eight seasons before averaging over nine dimes a game, a feat Kidd accomplished in nine consecutive seasons on teams with considerably less talent than the 2004-2005 Suns. Ultimately, this debate comes down to adaptability to circumstances, and it’s clear that Jason is more capable of making a big contribution regardless of the situation. Factor in his talent for triple-doubles and you have what will, on most teams, be the superior point guard.

[JMarkJohns]

This one is harder than you’d think. For many, Nash would be the reflex answer for the simple fact that he has an MVP trophy to his name, but this ignores that he played for eight seasons before averaging over nine dimes a game, a feat Kidd accomplished in nine consecutive seasons on teams with considerably less talent than the 2004-2005 Suns. Ultimately, this debate comes down to adaptability to circumstances, and it’s clear that Jason is more capable of making a big contribution regardless of the situation. Factor in his talent for triple-doubles and you have what will, on most teams, be the superior point guard.

This guy clearly doesn't know jack about what he's talking about.

You do a little digging and you'll find that what those Nets didn't have in a second legit star, they made up for in excellant depth.

Kidd, Harris
Kittles
Van Horn, Jefferson
Martin, Williams
McCollogh, Collins

Suns went one deep last year and that one player, Jackson, favored very favorably to their backup guard in Harris.

Nevermind Jeferson, Williams and Collins.

I'm at work and on deadline, but if this gets dragged out, I pull the rabbit out of the hat that ends this conversation, real fast...

[PhatKat]

Some more comparrison:

Jason Kidd
- Ranks 9th on the NBA's all-time assists list with 7,283
- 67 career triple-doubles, 29 as a Net
- 4th on the NBA all-time lists for assists per game (9.3)
- Named All-NBA First Team 5 times
- Named First Team All-Defensive Team 4 times
- Seven-time NBA All-Star
- Became only the fourth player in NBA history to lead the league in assists three-straight seasons - 1999-01 (John Stockton, 1988-96; Oscar Robertson, 1964-66; Bob Cousy, 1953-60)
- Became the sixth fastest NBA player to record 5000 career assists (531 games), as he finished with three points, 15 assists and eight rebounds in 44 minutes at Dallas on 1/21/2002
- Topped 700 assists and 500 rebounds in the same season for the second time in 1997-98, joining Robertson and Magic Johnson (six times each) as the only players in NBA history to do so more than once
- Was named 1994-95 NBA co-Rookie of the Year (with Grant Hill) and was a unanimous selection to the 1994-95 NBA All-Rookie First Team


Steve Nash
- NBA Most Valuable Player, 2004-05
- Named All-NBA First Team 1 time
- Three-time NBA All-Star
- 3 career triple-doubles


Hmm.. interesting.. I can see how you think Kidd is a marginal HoF'er with those credentials.

Look, I love the Suns and root for Nash but Kidd is an exceptionally talented point guard with the court vision second only to Magic, defense second only to Payton and an uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time to scoop up rebounds and steals.

[JMarkJohns]

And he's 0-fer against the only meaningful competition he's ever faced.

Even the one Eastern team that has won it all since KiDd has been out East, Kidd's Jersey lost to...

Look. I said he's overrated. Largely for the very reasons you're stating. He's got some very impressive stats, mostly in the assist and rebound columns, but in FG%, TOs and important wins, he's average, if not below average. Nash has at the very least beaten some Western Conference teams along the way. Kidd couldn't even do that as the favorite and as the better seed.

I'd argue both Kidd and Nash are overrated as PG's when compared to history, but no one is saying Nash is a top-3 PG because of his individual and team success.

Kidd is overrated.

[PhatKat]

Funny how easy it is for you to dismiss all those credentials with "he was facing inferior talent." Nice try.. I hope that wasnt your rabbit.

[JMarkJohns]

Funny how easy it is for you to dismiss all those credentials with "he was facing inferior talent." Nice try.. I hope that wasnt your rabbit.

haha, nope. Not even close... just stay tuned.

Don't say I didn't warn ya.

[PhatKat]

I'll be holding my breath.. good night.

[JMarkJohns]

Since 1970... six greatest statistical seasons.

Player: -PPG- : -APG- : -TOPG- : -A/TO- : -FG%-
...1...: -18.00- : -7.50- : -2.5- : -3.0/1- : -46.5-
...2...: -21.30- : -11.0- : -3.0- : -3.7/1- : -50.0-
...3...: -17.50- : -9.20- : -2.7- : -3.4/1- : -48.5-
...4...: -23.00- : -12.5- : -3.5- : -3.7/1- : -54.0-
...5...: -23.20- : -8.80- : -2.7- : -3.3/1- : -47.0-
...6...: -21.60- : -11.5- : -4.0- : -2.9/1- : -47.0-
...7...: -18.50- : -8.80- : -2.4- : -3.7/1- : -49.0-
.Kidd.: -16.50- : -9.60- : -3.3- : -2.9/1- : -40.0-

Overall ranking for points per game
Player: -PPG-
...5...: -23.20-
...4...: -23.00-
...6...: -21.60-
...2...: -21.30-
...7...: -18.50-
...1...: -18.00-
...3...: -17.50-
.Kidd.: -16.50-

Overall ranking for assists per game
Player: -APG-
...4...: -12.5-
...6...: -11.5-
...2...: -11.0-
.Kidd.: -9.60-
...3...: -9.20-
...5...: -8.80-
...7...: -8.80-
...1...: -7.50-

Overall ranking for turnovers per game
Player: -TOPG-
...7...: -2.4-
...1...: -2.5-
...3...: -2.7-
...5...: -2.7-
...2...: -3.0-
.Kidd.: -3.3-
...4...: -3.5-
...6...: -4.0-

Overall ranking for assist/turnover ratio per game
Player: -A/T0-
...2...: -3.7/1-
...7...: -3.7/1-
...4...: -3.7/1-
...3...: -3.4/1-
...5...: -3.3/1-
...1...: -3.0/1-
...6...: -2.9/1-
.Kidd.: -2.9/1-

Overall ranking for field goal percentage
Player: -FG%-
...4...: -54.0-
...2...: -50.0-
...7...: -49.0-
...3...: -48.5-
...5...: -47.0-
...6...: -47.0-
...1...: -46.5-
.Kidd.: -40.0-

This shows that Kidd is thee worst of these eight, great point guards in two significant categories, tied for worst in another and third worst in another. In fact, the only catagory that Kidd is top-4 in amongst these greats is in assists where, when compared, clearly shows his average is just that... average.

Couple this with the .549 (basically 44 wins) and .553 (45 wins) combined win percentages of the six Eastern Conference foes in Jersey's 01-02 and 02-03 trips to the finals...

Then factor in Kidd's 1-8 playoff series record against teams of 50-wins or more...

Then factor in Kidd's 0-7 playoff series record against Western Conference teams...

And you have a statistical reason and a team success reason for why Kidd is not a top-3 PG of all time as you claim and also why, in my opinion, he's a very overrated PG, if not thee most overrated PG of the last 25 years.


"Hate to say I told you so, but I..."
- The Hives


EDIT: Again, he's a very good player, but seriously...

Also, Contemporaries Nash and Payton were included in that list. Other great since 1970 as well...

[JMarkJohns]

Also, as shown above, the player Kidd most obviously compares to is "player #1"... He's well known, in the Hall of Fame, but isn't reguarded as a top-10 PG, let alone top-5 or top-3.

Of all the players listed, only Kidd and this player are bottom-4 in more than three categories.

Also, average position of the players, from best to worst...

Player #4: 2.8
Player #5: 3.0
Player #2: 3.0
Player #7: 3.6
Player #3: 4.6
Player #6: 5.4
Player #1: 5.8
...Kidd....: 6.8

C'mon, is this really still up for debate?

[DCCat]

I think it's fair to say that Kidd has had the greater career but Nash is currently the better player.

As for the "rabbit", it appears to missing some parts -- maybe it has four legs but no ears. In other words, it's a bit unfair to Jason because it does not include aspects of his game in which he would rate highly -- specifically, rebounding and steals -- so it's not a good measure of his game.

On the other hand, one could argue that rebounding isn't an essential PG skill, and maybe that and his poor shooting are the parts of his game that make him such a conundrum. He racks up triple doubles due to his rebounding, which makes him a statistical beast in the eyes of the public, but would he be a more valuable player if he hit more shots and rebounded less? Probably. But at this point, as a shooter he just is what he is, and he contributes in any other way he can. He is a regrettably flawed player, but still one of the best PGs of his generation.

[killervibe]

You took the 6 greatest statisical seasons and compared them as your proof? LOL.. Why wouldn't you compare career averages for the 6 greatest PG's including Kidd? That would be a far more accurate measurement. What you have shown me proves nothing.

Plus, why wouldnt you name the player and the season instead of just giving arbitrary numbers. I would be interested to see who you are comparing Kidd too and where those particular players would fall as CAREER greats. I would also be interested in seeing if all of those players are PG's (which I doubt) and if they are how many times a player like Magic repeats (meaning three players could make up those 6 season).

This is WAY below your typical standards JMJ.

[JMarkJohns]

DCCat...

I don't think it's unfair to Kidd, beucase I'm not saying Kidd isn't a very good player or even saying he's not a HOF player.

I'm simply showing that he's not a top-3 PG.

What would show a top-3 PG more than the "peak" seasons?

If you factor in career equally to peak, then a player like Mark Jackson should be considered an equal to a player like Kevin Johnson.

Afterall, Jackson has more points, more rebounds and more assists for his career...

I wasn't questioning Kidd's ability, just said abilities placement among the greats. Also, you are exactly right, rebounding doesn't really factor in to this because rebounds isn't a "PG" category. Might as well do blocks :rolleyes:


Killervibe...

I don't know what you're even trying to get at?

Why didn't I give names? because I wanted the games, not names to speak for themselves. Had I put Magic's name next to Magic's numbers, you'd just dismiss that row. If I put a Mark Price's name next to Mark Price's stats, you'd just dismiss that row.

Fact is and in no particular order, Mark Price, Dennis Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton and John Stockton were the PG's used in the study along with Kidd.

All are PG, all could be considered a HOF...

It was you, afterall, who said that Kidd was a top-3 PG of all time.

In order for that to happen, wouldn't Kidd then have to be better during his peak than all these players? He's not.

Again, I'm not saying Kidd is bad. Never did.
Again, I'm not saying Kidd isn't one of the best PG's of his generation (1990-on). In fact, I said he was more than likely the best PG of his generation.
Again, I'm not saying he's not a HOF. I did.

But the stats don't lie. His record vs. "good" competition doesn't lie.

You can go ahead and dismiss everything if you want, but it will only show your blatent bias at that point.

You proclaim Kidd was the great PG of this generation and that Phoenix would have been better with him over Nash, except that with Nash, the Suns won two playoff series last year that they likely (when looking at records) would have lost if Kidd was still their PG.

He is 1-for-9 vs. 50-win teams in the playoffs and 0-for-7 against any Western Conference team in the playoffs.

Please... he's a great, great passer and a great rebounder, but he's mediocre as a shooter, average as a scorer and because of these areas, he has to force passes into slack defense, playing him to pass, rather than shoot, which has killed his assist to turnover ratio.

[JMarkJohns]

Again, KV, why would career averages be a better determining factor of overall greatness than peak years? Afterall, some players got injured after only 8 or 9 seasons. Some far fewer. Greatness should be determined by each players peak, first and foremost, then with the "total" stats factored in.

Totals are very, very misleading... in my way the field is level to begin with, which means extended careers aren't as significant as overall peak play.

If you were to have said Kidd was one of the accomplished PGs of all time, then that rings true with the stats. Solid per game averages but thanks to longevity, even better totals.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, you can't fairly compare career years since Kidd's and Payton's aren't completed yet and when Kidd hasn't even started the period in his career where he's just another player like many of those greats above have.

You take the six best season. That's fair across the board. In the long run, my way will actually increase Kidd's per game stats in this study because already his career averages in points and assists are lower than his given stats in this thread. Kidd is starting his treck downhill and his per game stats will very soon begin to suffer. He'll probably finish his career around 14 points per, 9 assists per and sub-40% shooting.

[DCCat]

I think KV didn't understand that you were doing a six-peak-year-average analysis of 8 different players. I think he thought you were citing the 8 greatest seasons by PGs since 1970.

I'm not sure I understand how your comments back to me actually address my comments. I have no argument with doing a peak year analysis. My comment about rebounding has to do with the fact that Kidd's rebounding is often cited as an important aspect of why he is considered by many to be a great player. And those who say that are correct, it is a factor in assessing Kidd as a player. You may be right in ignoring that aspect of his play when assessing him as a PG, but pigeonholing players into such categories rather than looking at the big picture is usually done to further an agenda, and I think it's fair to say that that's what you're doing, since your views on Kidd are well known and go beyond what he does on the floor.

I do think that factoring steals into your PG analysis makes sense regardless of what you think of the above.

Another thing to note is that Magic and Kidd were not that different as players, except that Magic was bigger and could work inside more. Even at the end of his career, Magic's outside shot was unreliable. And a significant portion of Magic's reputation as a great PLAYER (not just PG) was based on his excellence as a rebounder. Magic's shooting percentage and scoring averages were bolstered by the fact that he could get more points in the paint.

Having said all that, I agree with you, as noted in my earlier post, that Kidd is a flawed player. Perhaps even tragically flawed, although I think he is capable of winning a title with the right supporting cast.

[PhatKat]

I think KV didn't understand that you were doing a six-peak-year-average analysis of 8 different players. I think he thought you were citing the 8 greatest seasons by PGs since 1970.

True.

Perhaps I would be more willing to concede your point JMJ if I understood your methodology. Can you walk me through how you compiled those stats?

[TakiCat]

Kidd is a top three all-time PG. Nash isnt. Getting rid of Kidd was incredibly stupid regardless of how well Nash is playing.

This is one of the most laughably ignorant statements I've ever heard - I hope it was meant as a joke! I'm sure the Suns are kicking themselves - a la the '84 Blazers who took Sam Bowie - for making this move.

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

[JMarkJohns]

I looked at Kidd's stats. I took his best six statistical averages for points per game, field goal percentage, assists per game, turnovers per game, then divided his assist average by his turnover average over the same span.

Same with every player above.

So it's not just one season. It's actually each players six best statistical season in the five categories that define a point guard. Every stat you saw had six different seasonal averages making it up. You add them up (I rounded to the nearest whole number) then divide that sum by the number of season's considered (in this case six), then round that number to the nearest tenth.

Rebounds, steals, blocks, those are all nice, but other than maybe steals, none are particularly relevant to the PG position.

So, in recap, Kidd's averages literally show his six best statistical seasons in each category.

You can't compare careers fairly, since some didn't have a LONG career, but were great, great PG when healthy (Thomas, KJ) and since some careers aren't yet over (Payton, Kidd, Nash).

Does this help? It's the basic type of statistical study used for determining peak value because it shows what a player did when he was at his very best.

At his very best, Kidd is 7th or 8th best statistically amongst the group of Magic, Stockton, KJ, DJ, Payton, Nash and Thomas in the five main PG areas.


Again, you said 3rd best PG of all time. I disagree.

However, what I am trying to convey is that while I disagree with that assessment, I do think he's around a top-10 PG all time and one of the most talented players to ever play the position, but Kidd has too many things working against him statistically and successfully for me to proclaim him an all-time great. Yes, he's a great, but I don't think he belongs with PG's like Magic, Stockton or Thomas since 1980 and I would even argue he doesn't really belong with KJ or Price.

I said the same of Nash just last week, so it's not just about Kidd.

I don't feel that any of this generation's PG's measure up to last generation's. I feel this generation's crop is somewhere amongst last generations 2nd and 3rd tier levels.

That's why you haven't seen any great PG's win a title since Thomas. Stockton came close, but again, he was of the 1978-1990 crop. Kidd is of the 1990-2002 crop.

He's probably the best of his generation, but when your closest rivals are a four season Nash and an eight year Marbury, then there's really nothing to hang your hat on...

My personal rankings, stats included would be (since 1980)

1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Isiah Thomas
second tier
4. Kevin Johnson (hurt because of injuries, lack of Title)
5. Gary Payton
6. Mark Price
7. Jason Kidd
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Steve Nash ( is climbing on DJ. Needs three more great years or a title)
third tier
10. Mark Jackson (career helps out over Marbury, Cassell)

[DCCat]

JMJ, props for putting Mark Price high on this list. He's a generally underrated player who perhaps would be more recognized if he hadn't struggled with injuries in the latter portion of his career. He is probably one of my ten (maybe even five) favorite COLLEGE players ever.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, I wasn't trying to further any agenda. If I was analyizing him as a player I'd have done everything. I wasn't, so I did offensive PG stats, since those, more than anything, are what define a PG's greatness. Clearly, Kidd is a fantastic passer. One of the best ever. I wouldn't even argue against it, but as you've pointed out, his game's flaws have severely limited his and his teams overall success. Have you noticed that the Nets tend to run their halfcourt offense through Carter? Why? Because Kidd's halfcourt inability translates to his team's offensive inability. Defenders slack off him, taking away driving and passing lanes, daring him to shoot. If he obliges, 60% of the time (probably more like 75% with layups factored out) he misses the shot. If he doesn't shoot, then he's either not creating anything by just dumping the ball off, or he's forcing a drive or a pass which tend to lead into either worse shots or turnovers.

As a player, he's arguably a top-10 overall since 1990. As a PG, he's probably the best. But again, his crop of challengers (Nash, Cassell, Marbury, Miller, Billups...) aren't anything to write home about, considering Marbury is equally ineffective against good playoff competition, Cassell isn't the dominant PG, Miller is very similer in many area to Kidd and Nash and Billups have just been "great" for two or three years now.