PDA

View Full Version : Brawl ends Pistons-Pacers Game...


azhoops
11-19-2004, 11:54 PM
Pistons @ home losing by 15? late in the game. Ron Artest hacks Ben Wallace, Wallace hits Artest. Artest is eventually hit with a beer, and runs into the stands followed by other Pacers. Players start attacking fans (somewhat randomly), many punches thrown- including Stephen Jackson caught on camera hitting a guy in the face. Jackass Stephen A. Smith blames the incident completely on the fans. Obviously a beer should not have been thrown at Artest, but you do not go into the stands and attack fans- especially since it can be very difficult to tell who was involved. The announcer said there was a look in Artest's eyes that "frightened him"...

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 12:02 AM
Just saw the end of that "highlight" . . . talk about mayhem. I think I saw some player jump onto a fan (maybe somebody involved in the fight) who was on the floor and start wailing on him. Nice . . .

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 12:03 AM
just saw it...........best fight ever.

Zona90
11-20-2004, 12:07 AM
The Detroit fans were punks. Artest had every right to go into the stands and beat the sh*t out of that fan. That fan throwing the beer in Artest's face, that was an assault.

I hope some of those fans get arrested. It was an ugly incident. They have no right throwing beer at the players and coaches. They acted like a bunch of animals.

I'm not an Artest fan but he did not hack Wallace. Wallace overreacted because it was Artest. I doubt Wallace would of reacted that way if it was Shaq.

Officer Craig
11-20-2004, 12:07 AM
Now Artest can keep it more real on his upcoming rap cd.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 12:08 AM
Where is that Right enshrined? I must have missed the Right to Beat the **** out of Fans who Douse You With Beer in my poli sci classes.

That's horsesh*t . . . Artest is in big trouble.

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 12:09 AM
There was absolutely NO reason to foul in that situation....I would be happy if Artest gets suspended for the season.

He is the punk. Besides , he needs time to go work on this rap CD. The fans have no excuse, but it's Artests fault that it happened in the first place.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 12:10 AM
Wallace did overreact somewhat, I agree. I don't necessarily have a problem with players going after the offending fans, but it was not the right choice in this situation. If a fan physically attacks you, then you fight back (like the Royals at Comiskey Park). However, if someone throws a beer at you, let it go- nothing good is going to come from your response. I'm sure some people became involved in the fight that were not part of it initially as a result of Artest's retaliation.

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 12:12 AM
You dont have a problem with him going into the stands?

That's bullshyte. Its a plastic bottle, this happens in Europe all of the time...and you dont see football players running off the pitch into the stands. The one player that did, Eric Cantona (Man U) was suspened 8 months when he did it in 94.

There is absolutely no reason to go into the stands....ever. Let the police and security do their job. Stephan A Smith makes me sick.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 12:26 AM
I am not watching the NBA on ESPN again until Stephen A. Smith is fired, what a stupid *******...and that goes for Saunders too

I hope Artest gets suspended for the year, but I know the NBA doesn't have the balls do it

dee1three
11-20-2004, 12:28 AM
Im sorry but I feel those fans got exactly what they deserved. They should be arrested and banned from ever attending sporting events again. Fans are there to be spectators, and when they try and become part of the action, they need to be ready to suffer the consequences. An absolutly classless showing by the fans in Detroit.

With that said, Artest and any other player who was involved should be suspended also. Going into the stands is unacceptable, and a player needs to try and show more restraint when it comes to issues like this. However, I completly understand and probably would have done the same thing myself.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 12:32 AM
And you would be in jail with Jackson, Artest and O'Neal. If they don't go to jail for assault, the Justice System in America is broken.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:32 AM
The Detroit fans were punks. Artest had every right to go into the stands and beat the sh*t out of that fan. That fan throwing the beer in Artest's face, that was an assault.

I hope some of those fans get arrested. It was an ugly incident. They have no right throwing beer at the players and coaches. They acted like a bunch of animals.

I'm not an Artest fan but he did not hack Wallace. Wallace overreacted because it was Artest. I doubt Wallace would of reacted that way if it was Shaq.

90!!!

Good to see you back, Where the heck have you been!

Bearing Down on the Return of The Ulitmate ASU Hater

Auercat

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:34 AM
And you would be in jail with Jackson, Artest and O'Neal. If they don't go to jail for assault, the Justice System in America is broken.

Agree completely BJBJ. And that was only the 2nd best brawl of the night only behind you and Immel. :roll:

JK

Bearing Down on Jail For Spectators and Players Alike

Auercat

SCCat
11-20-2004, 12:35 AM
Just saw it and sorry, no reason to go into the stands headhunting ever. But even worse was the fan he cold cocked on the sideline.

Now Artest will have all the free time he needs. Sadly, it is going to cost him much, much more than just his paychecks he would have to had forgo.

Zona90
11-20-2004, 12:36 AM
If someone throws a bottle, plastic or not, and it hits me in the face I am sure as hell going to go after that person and hit him.

Let's say this happens against the Wildcats on Sunday against Virginia. Salim gets hit in the face with a bottle and goes into the stands and hits a fan. Other UofA players then go into the stands to defend Salim. I would bet every single person on this board would be outraged at the Virginia fans. Everyone would be defending the players and calling the Virginia fans a$$holes.

By the way, I remember when the Wildcats played Washington State in 1995 and a fan threw a bottle at Lute and the bench. The fans were assessed a technical and the UofA won in double overtime. I doubt there were any Wildcat fans who sided for the WSU crowd.

There is no place in sports where the fans can act like animals and throw anything at the players, no matter who the athletes are.

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 12:38 AM
If Salim went into the stands at UVA to fight a fan...

I would want him off the team immediately. There is NEVER a reason to go into the stands, they have cops for that.

If the NBA does not suspend Artest and Oneal for a long time, I'm going to be livid.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 12:41 AM
Throwing beer on someone = not assault
Haymaker to jaw = assault

Period.

Of course the fans were in the wrong. I'm not defending their actions. I'm criticizing the players' actions.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 12:41 AM
By the way, I remember when the Wildcats played Washington State in 1995 and a fan threw a bottle at Lute and the bench. The fans were assessed a technical and the UofA won in double overtime. I doubt there were any Wildcat fans who sided for the WSU crowd.

That's not relevant, nobody went into the stands...


good posts zonacat and bjbj, I agree

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 12:51 AM
I didn't see it...I'm boycotting the NBA

SCCat
11-20-2004, 12:56 AM
If someone throws a bottle, plastic or not, and it hits me in the face I am sure as hell going to go after that person and hit him.


Are you sure about that? Someone throws a plastic bottle at you, you are a multi-millionaire and you go after them and start beating the **** out of them.

You----->jail.

Judgements against you in court----->to the other guy.

Your attorneys fees = lotsa dough.

You always have the choice to go after anyone. Just have to live with the consequences.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:56 AM
I think that both teams should forfeit some games. Artest, O"Neal, Jackson, Ben Wallace and a few I'm missing should be arrested. And the fans who were initially involved should also spend some time in jail.

There is absolutely no place for this in sports. The fans hate the players because of the money they make. The players look at the fans like p*ssant serfs not worthy of their presence. And this whole thing has been boiling over for quite a while. If David Stern does not tackle this incident and some of the other underlying problems between the league and its fans, there's no telling as to what will happen next.

Bearing Down on The Ugliest Sports Incident In The USA That I've Ever Seen

Auercat

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:00 AM
ZONA didn't you argue that it was ok for Francisco to have thrown a chair into the stands?

ESPN's announcers are all offending me as an intelligent human being right now. It is NOT true that anyone who gets hit with a plastic cup is going into the stands to start a fight. The players were NOT fighting for their lives. If Artest hadn't gone into the stands and started a fight, there would have been no threat to the players. I don't think any state allows the use of force in self-defense after being hit by a cup, nor should it. Artest and Jackson will be in court.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 01:00 AM
Jim Gray is about to cry . . .

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 01:01 AM
ZONA didn't you argue that it was ok for Francisco to have thrown a chair into the stands?


No. I blamed Oaklands security for letting it get out of hand before he went into the stands.

Fransico had no right to do what he did, and neither does Artest/O'neal.

For reference (http://forum.goazcats.com/showthread.php?t=20034&highlight=fransico)

I think the fans should def. go to jail also, I just dont like seeing ESPN defending Artest like he did nothing wrong. They were all over Fransico.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:02 AM
I think fans hate artest, and some other players, because they believe they are punks (and also due to monetary issues, to a very minor extent). Ben Wallace should not be arrested, all he did was push Artest in the face (unless I missed something). That stuff happens all the time. Was Varitek arrested for hitting ARod this year? I doubt the NBA's reaction will be too harsh towards Artest, unfortunately. I think they are afraid of race issues becoming involved.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:03 AM
take the espn survey:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=1010

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 01:04 AM
LOL . . . ESPN commentators are interested in the legal issues: will the jails be filled with fans who threw beer!!!! Not, will 3 NBA players be arrested and sent to jail for assault. I've never seen such an off the mark reaction to an event by sportscasters.

WilmasPimp
11-20-2004, 01:04 AM
Jim Gray is about to cry . . .

I noticed that too. His voice was really trembling. I can't imagine what it would have been like to witness that melee firsthand.

Every one of those coaches in suits who were taking swings should get the longest suspensions.

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:05 AM
I think fans hate artest, and some other players, because they believe they are punks and also due to monetary issues. Ben Wallace should not be arrested, all he did was push Artest in the face (unless I missed something). That stuff happens all the time. Was Varitek arrested for hitting ARod this year? I doubt the NBA's reaction will be too harsh towards Artest, unfortunately. I think they are afraid of race issues becoming involved.

I don't think anyone has suggest Wallace being charged with anything. The only precedent I can think of for that is some hockey player getting charged with assault for an egregious high-stick a few years ago, right?

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 01:06 AM
take the espn survey:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=1010

Even in the poll, I'm waiting for the followup question that never comes after this one:

9) Should local authorities use videotape to prosecute unruly fans on any applicable charges relating to Friday's game?

Yes, but only those involved in physical violence
Yes, anyone throwing anything at players or personnel
No, keep it out of those kind of courts

Where is:

Should local authorities use videotape to prosecute unruly players on any applicable charges relating to Friday's game?

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:07 AM
Jim Gray is about to cry . . .


I think he was crying.... he said he was right next to Artest when it broke out. Maybe (and if not I wish) he had been hit with a haymaker to the jaw.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:07 AM
Auercat wrote that about Wallace...

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:07 AM
LOL . . . ESPN commentators are interested in the legal issues: will the jails be filled with fans who threw beer!!!! Not, will 3 NBA players be arrested and sent to jail for assault. I've never seen such an off the mark reaction to an event by sportscasters.

The civil battery lawsuits are going to be even worse then the criminal charges.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 01:08 AM
The lawyers already put up tents outside the Arena to interview potential clients. :roll:

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:08 AM
Rumor is Artest beat the crap out of the wrong guy, not surprising if true...

From the UNC board "John Edwards just got on a plane to Detroit"

lol

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:08 AM
Auercat wrote that about Wallace...

My bad, I missed his post.

WilmasPimp
11-20-2004, 01:09 AM
Those fans are gonna get some serious cash. From the players, the NBA, the Pistons, everyone.

Anyone see the rush of security guards and police to protect the fans when the players ran into the stand to kick some ass? Me neither.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 01:10 AM
All Wallace did was help to start inciting a riot.

And like the rest of you, I think that ESPN and its slew of explayers are way off base. Ron Artest is paid a boatload of money and should never react. Then the mob mentality set in and the rest of the team reacted too. It's flat out inexcusable and a disgrace. The players and coaches who faught are everybit as culpable (if not more) as the fans. They all need some time in jail.

Bearing Down on ESPN Defending The Poor Picked On Players. WTF is That?

Auercat

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:10 AM
This is ridic. If some jackass pores a beer on me at a bar and I drop him, I'm going to jail for the night. Are all these announcers totally unaware of that fact?
And where does that ESPN poll come up with threw "an apparently full beer, and possibly other items?" I haven't yet seen anything in the tape other then that blue plastic beer cup.

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:12 AM
This is ridic. If some jackass pores a beer on me at a bar and I drop him, I'm going to jail for the night. Are all these announcers totally unaware of that fact?
And where does that ESPN poll come up with threw "an apparently full beer, and possibly other items?" I haven't yet seen anything in the tape other then that blue plastic beer cup.


Don't forget ice.

SCCat
11-20-2004, 01:12 AM
From the UNC board "John Edwards just got on a plane to Detroit"



Hahahahahaha!

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:13 AM
Did anyone see the chair come in at the end. It looked liked it nailed O'neal in the head.

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:13 AM
Didn't Iverson go to jail for inciting a riot before he wound up at G-town? I wonder what the legal requirements for such a charge are...
I can see an assault and battery charge against Wallace, though as mentioned before it seems like most authorities have been loath to level charges in player-on-player altercations. But an inciting a riot type of situation seems rather far-fetched. My guess is it would require some sort of intent to start a riot, not just the intent to batter an individual.

walk-on-wildcat
11-20-2004, 01:14 AM
Pic #1

SCCat
11-20-2004, 01:15 AM
This is ridic. If some jackass pores a beer on me at a bar and I drop him, I'm going to jail for the night. Are all these announcers totally unaware of that fact?


Kenny you can always choose to do that, but you are in the wrong and going to jail. It is not a "self-defence" against a beer on you issue. You can not retailiate and get a cop and have the guy arrested for a battery against you [the plastic bottle hitting you], but if you went after him and beat him up you would be in the wrong for that, and be arrested.

walk-on-wildcat
11-20-2004, 01:16 AM
The funny one #2

Auercat
11-20-2004, 01:16 AM
Kenny,

Iverson broke some dude's skull in a fight-riot when he was a JR in high schooll. He did some hard time for that and everyone except John "Mother Theresa" Thompson backed off recruiting him as a convicted felon.

Bearing Down on John Thompson Later Saying He Might Have Done The Wrong Thing And Help To Speed Up The Acceptance Gangsta Playas in The Association

Auercat

WilmasPimp
11-20-2004, 01:17 AM
Iverson went to jail for getting into a really ugly brawl at some bowling alley. I think the Governor pardoned him so he could go to college.

Staf4Wooden
11-20-2004, 01:17 AM
Agree completely BJBJ. And that was only the 2nd best brawl of the night only behind you and Immel. :roll:

JK

Bearing Down on Jail For Spectators and Players Alike

Auercat

Actually, it was probably the 3rd best brawl of the night. Did you see Kobe Bryant's jump shot vs. the rim? 10-33. The rim won.

Class of 1990
11-20-2004, 01:17 AM
The chair throw was like Geraldo Rivera show. What a freaking mess ?

N.B.A. "gotta love it".

Actually if this was the W.N.B.A. then we would having something fun to talk about.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:18 AM
Good posts LegallyKenny and Auercat, but Auercat I don't agree that Wallace deserves any significant blame

ESPN and its announcers are full of crap, they don't want the league to look bad- too late!

Apparently the replay shows little kids crying in the background after the fight...nice pr for the league

Also from the UNC board "It was all planned, Artest just needed some street cred for the release of his album"

lol staf4wooden

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 01:21 AM
Kenny you can always choose to do that, but you are in the wrong and going to jail. It is not a "self-defence" against a beer on you issue. You can not retailiate and get a cop and have the guy arrested for a battery against you [the plastic bottle hitting you], but if you went after him and beat him up you would be in the wrong for that, and be arrested.

I think you misunderstood my post, that's exactly what I said the law is. I'm saying the announcers don't seem to understand that the law does not allow retaliation in such a situation.

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:21 AM
Damn I thought hockey started again....god damn NBA.

WilmasPimp
11-20-2004, 01:22 AM
The worst defense was by Legler, who whined about how much verbal abuse the players had to endure from the fans.

"Your honor, that teenager was chanting "you suck" all game long. By the 5th or 6th time he said it, I had no choice but to run into the stands and try to knock him out."

muffley
11-20-2004, 01:28 AM
Video: http://video.contemporaryinsanity.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=46

or http://www.norcalsportsfans.com/uploads/nbafight.wmv

or http://www.the-rewind.com/videos/artest.wmv

Auercat
11-20-2004, 01:28 AM
The worst defense was by Legler, who whined about how much verbal abuse the players had to endure from the fans.

"Your honor, that teenager was chanting "you suck" all game long. By the 5th or 6th time he said it, I had no choice but to run into the stands and try to knock him out."

Right on Pimp!

Bearing Down on Poor Timmy Reliving His Days of Being Picked On by The Mean Fans

Auercat

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 01:28 AM
Same. Fight (http://students.washington.edu/tkz/Fight.avi )

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:35 AM
just hearing that stephen a smith commentary from the video again makes me sick...

"we know the pacers players will be suspended, the question is: do they deserve to be suspended?"

SnowCat
11-20-2004, 01:38 AM
Throwing beer on someone = not assault
Haymaker to jaw = assault


I would think the chair flying at J.O's head could be considered assault with a deadly weapon.

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:40 AM
My hope is that they just get rid of the NBA and we can all look forward to real basketball in college. Imagine 4 year starters at the college level.

muffley
11-20-2004, 01:42 AM
How about the sucker punch Artest gave that chubby piston jerseyed guy with the towel on the court. Whoa dude.

EDIT: It was O'Neil with the sucker punch after Artest nailed the dude.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 01:43 AM
I would think the chair flying at J.O's head could be considered assault with a deadly weapon.

For sure . . . . and hopefully that fan will get busted. But that chair never gets thrown if the Pacers don't go into the stands with fists swinging (nailing an innocent bystander, by the way).

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 01:48 AM
At the end when all the players were going into the locker room, O'neal was putting his hands up and egging the fans to keep throwing stuff at him. Talk about imaturity, this crap is just sad.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 01:51 AM
Quentin Richardson of the Phoenix Suns watched the brawl on television.

"I have never seen a fight like that in a game since I was in high school," he said. "Man, there are going to be some lawsuits. You don't think some of those fans aren't going to want some NBA money?"

"I'm just embarrassed for our league and disappointed for our young people to see that," Larry Brown said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=241119008

muffley
11-20-2004, 01:59 AM
Unedited video: http://mfile.akamai.com/12942/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2004/1120/3935750.200k.asx

SnowCat
11-20-2004, 02:04 AM
For sure . . . . and hopefully that fan will get busted. But that chair never gets thrown if the Pacers don't go into the stands with fists swinging (nailing an innocent bystander, by the way).

I'm not saying anyone is right - nobody was. Basically everyone involved (except for those who really weren't involved) is at fault. When you get to the level of 'If not for so-n-so's actions' there are a lot of different places in the timeline of the scene where the finger can be pointed. The whole incident was a chain reaction of stupidity by almost everyone in the vicinity, including Pacer players.

One thing that pisses me off that hasn't been mentioned yet is the 50 or 60 gallons of beer, pop, and snoose spit cups dumped on O'neal as he left the court. Definitely a degrading and ugly mob scene.

The Pacer fan that started it should be cited for inciting a riot. The one who threw the chair should be cited for some level of violent assault. Assault charges should also be at the very least strongly considered for at least 3 Pacers. Charges against Artest wouldn't be without merit.

Here's to some police department somewhere finally doing the right thing when player/fan violence is occurred by kicking everyones asses!

EDIT: Just making the point that common sense should prevail. If I were to drive to one of the nearby towns tonight, walk into 7 bars (let's make this a championship series), ordered a beer, then threw it in the face of 7 different people engaged in hotly contested debates in the 7 different bars;

How many times would I get punched in the face??

In no way am I saying Artest was right to charge the crowd, but what possible good could have resulted from dousing Artest? That's the original stupid move of the night.

As far as the guy who got clocke by O'neal at the end? Even though he was on the floor, he's the one that started it.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 02:10 AM
if you arent blaming the fans then you didnt see it live... bottom line

Ive seen all the highlights and they DONT SHOW THE HALF of what happened, Im not taking the players off the hook but it was COMPLETELY instigated by the fans...

muffley
11-20-2004, 02:11 AM
If Latrell Sprewell is still playing after choking his coach, I don't think the NBA will be coming down to hard on Artest.

They should, but they won't, especially with the players union automatically going to file any appeal.

muffley
11-20-2004, 02:13 AM
if you arent blaming the fans then you didnt see it live... bottom line

No way world class athletes should be pounding on drunken couch potatoes, no matter what.

You didn't see Artest trying to take on Ben Wallace did you? He was smart enough to back away, but he didn't have any problems going after some skinny ass white dude.

You can see the whole thing in the link I posted a couple messages up. It was a live feed from a local Detroit station someone captured.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 02:18 AM
"if you arent blaming the fans then you didnt see it live... bottom line"

bull****, it was instigated by fans, but was escalated to a violent level by the players, I didn't see the fans punch anyone until Artest did first.

Stephen Jackson hit a guy in the face who was just standing there three seats from where Artest attacked someone.

ESPN says that they guy who walked up to artest on the court "had his fists raised". That's more crap from ESPN, watch the video- his hands were at his sides. I don't know what he said (if anything) but Artest decks him

screw the nba, I'm sick of watching this punk crap- it really makes you wonder what Mike Montgomery was thinking...

thanks for the full video muffley

Staf4Wooden
11-20-2004, 02:35 AM
In other news, Dwyane Wade hit a game winning buzzer beater in O.T. for his career high 39th point.

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 02:47 AM
In other news, Dwyane Wade hit a game winning buzzer beater in O.T. for his career high 39th point.
Screw Dwayne Wade

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 02:51 AM
I completely disagree. First-Artest's foul wasn't dirty. it was a hard foul and wallace and just as responsible for retaliation as Artest is. These are men as many times as we forget. Artest maybe should not have gone in but I can't hate him for it. The fans should be ashamed. Even if we put the Artest bottle to the face aside what about everything else? What about the bottles, cups and CHAIR? Everybody is guilty here but to say Artest is the only bad guy is a joke

Staf4Wooden
11-20-2004, 02:52 AM
Screw Dwayne Wade
Screw You

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 02:53 AM
You dont have a problem with him going into the stands?

That's bullshyte. Its a plastic bottle, this happens in Europe all of the time...and you dont see football players running off the pitch into the stands. The one player that did, Eric Cantona (Man U) was suspened 8 months when he did it in 94.

There is absolutely no reason to go into the stands....ever. Let the police and security do their job. Stephan A Smith makes me sick.

It's probably even worse in South America. Yet, I've never the US National Team go into the stands after having bottles, rocks, coins or anything like that thrown at them...

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 02:58 AM
Also..as far as the guy Artest punched..why was the guy even on the court. Artest sees brawls all over the place what is he to expect when a fan goes on the court. Personally I am not waiting to get punched in the face before I retaliate.

Class of 1990
11-20-2004, 03:01 AM
From jajoyce

Screw Dwayne Wade

Well how about Whittney ?

Class of 1990
11-20-2004, 03:03 AM
Back to the thread. That punch by JO was solid. I am surprised that guy got up. Wonder what the next meeting is going to be like for these two teams.

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 03:09 AM
Finally saw it and am ashamed...There is nothing good that can come out of this for the players and the fans...Just, WOW...

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:12 AM
They should play at neutral sites. Can you imagine the trip back to Detroit?

Class of 1990
11-20-2004, 03:22 AM
Their next meeting is in Indiana on Christmas Day. A day of giving,peace on earth and this game on ABC. Who is going to want to watch the Laker-Heat game afterwards ?

Det @ Ind Jan 27th
Ind @ Det Mar 25th

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:31 AM
More I watch the more disgusted I get. Artest's foul wasnt bad. Wallace, a nice calm guy, went nuts. If Wallace ends it its ends b ut for some reason Wallace kept yelling, prob cuz he though Artest was showing him up. I actually think jackson is the most guilty but its ridiculous. Jones didnt do anything and got nailed. Jackson, O'Neal and the fans will get charges, as will Artest. This is sick...

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 03:44 AM
Ron Artest=Detroit Piston fans

A match made in thug heaven :rolleyes:

Bearing Down on Two Groups Who Deserve Each Other

The present NBA is so far removed from the league of Johnson, Bird and Jordan it might as well be sponsored by the WWF. Of course, Stern will publicly institute some kind of "zero-tolerance" policy, throw away millions of league dollars on increased security (at EVERY site), do everything BUT have the moral courage to do the RIGHT thing: ban Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson from every league venue for the rest of the year.

And letting either of those guys back on the court this year is tantamount to criminal negligence on Stern's part, IMHO. What we saw tonight is the ****storm that is stirred when a league courts 18-year-olds as its representatives and makes egregious exceptions for the stars on a regular basis. Do the ESPN announcers even pretend NOT to be a front for the league anymore?

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:50 AM
C'mon ban those three guys? So then they should also ban beer, and play in Detroit in an empty arena. It also happened in baseball and they are surely older than 18. It happened in tennis with Seles and happens in soccer plenty of times.

BibbysTowelDude
11-20-2004, 04:03 AM
I at first thought the blame goes half way between fans and players then I see a clip of an old lady under neath the damn crowd bleeding out of her head and thats when I stop feeling the least bit sorry for the players... Id suspend Artest,Jackson, and O'Neal for lengthy periods , from after the all star break to a full season(Artest and Jackson). Id also lay down suspensions for Wallace,Tinsley,Fred Jones,RIP Hamilton, and Sheed. and Id expect arrests made for some of those fans... Then I'd also throw fines to those same players and id suspend and fine the assistant coaches... I'd applaud Larry Brown and then I'd make fun of the pacers head coach (forget his name Rick something right?).

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 04:03 AM
Please, that's a straw man argument and you know it. Real men don't go into the stands after fans--I don't care if the fans are drunk, throw beer, batteries, or worse at the players. As BJBJ pointed out, it wasn't the fans who went after the players and threw the first punch. Artest, Jackson, Wallace and O'Neal are responsible for their own actions as representatives of the NBA. Remember Kermit Washington?

Let's get off the slippery slope here and stop equivocating actions of millionaire entertainers with what happens in other sports (much less in other countries). A civilized society doesn't leave any doubt as to the acceptability of such violence at a sporting event, in front of thousands of children. Stern banned Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins of the Houston Rockets on a yearly basis in the 1980s for drug abuse--and the only bodies they abused were their own. IMHO, this incident is worse.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 04:07 AM
No no real men walk away right? That's what you learn in like 5th grade. I'm not saying what Artest did was right but I don't think it was terribly wrong either. So if Artest picks up his water bottle, throws it at the fan and hits him square in the face it would have been ok? I think both are guilty-no doubt about that. But personally I don't hold the athletes at a higher standard. We pay to see them thus we should respect them, not throw **** at them. They should respect us to of course but I just don't see how one person is more at blame than the other

azhoops
11-20-2004, 04:11 AM
Fred Jones got a bad deal, he was breaking up the fight and got hit from behind. However, he was smart enough not to go crazy after another fan and thus worsen the situation. I don't think Hamilton and Rasheed did much wrong either.

I missed Tinsley getting ready to throw a dustpan like a spear into the crowd the first time I saw the video...insane

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 04:17 AM
I agree that the fans are culpable, and will spend some time in jail for the incident, but the players ARE on a different level--and SHOULD implicitly be held accountable that way--because the fans PAY their SALARIES! You don't go after the people who fork over $100 a night and more just to subsidize your attempts to put a round ball through an iron hoop. You're risking career suicide, and that's just what Jackson, Artest, and possibly even O'Neal (checked your shoe contracts lately, bubba?) committed tonight, I think.

Kermit Washington slugged Rudy Tomjanovich in a game one time, broke his jaw, and was never heard from again in the league. Why should any of the Pacer or Piston instigators be held to a lesser standard?

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 04:21 AM
I guess you can say it goes both ways. I switch that around. We are paying for them to entertain us. They, to me, are not on a different level in certain ways. At the end of the day they are still men who can feel threatened, just as I am sure they did tonight.

Personally if I am in Detroit and a freaking riot is breaking out I'm long gone. I woulda been scared as hell

greasytony
11-20-2004, 04:31 AM
At the end of the day these are all humans who all go through the same type of emotions. I place the blame on Ben Wallace, who is a player I respected more than most. Artest did not foul him that hard, he was the defensive player of the year because he is not one to allow easy buckets, Wallace started it all by taking it too far.

That being said, I place the rest of the blame on the fans. They crossed the line. They assaulted Artest. Artest had the right to defend himself. And I am in no way an Artest fan, but I think what he did is legal in terms of self-defense.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:40 AM
I was assaulted by my shower head this morning too . . . I almost beat the hell out of it with my toilet seat, but I refrained.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 04:44 AM
there were horrible actions on everyone's parts, but to blame Artest is ignorant... I dont know if any of you watched SC but they had an interview the the Detroit Chief of Police and he said that bottles being thrown is a means to defend yourself... I am by no means condoning any of them, but I do think that the brunt of the punishment from the LEAGUE should go toword Ben Wallace, Artest let it go, until he get hit in the chest by things flying from the stands. To assume and expect athletes to be above being human is stupid and downright ignorant.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:51 AM
Nope, they aren't above being human . . . and are therefore subject to the laws of the land just like all of the rest of the humans--including assault. I'll be waiting with bated breath for the assault charges to be filed against Artest, Jackson and O'Neal, and a bevy of fans. I don't expect any assault charges to be filed against Wallace as his actions have been repeated dozens of times every year in the context of various sporting events . . . without legal repercussion.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 04:55 AM
Actually the Auburn Hills PD deputy police chief was asked by jim gray if being hit with a chair or bottle constituted assault, and thus allowed for self-defense. The guy said that for a chair certainly yes. However, he did not say anything with much certainty about a bottle or liquid, as it is pretty much up to the prosecutors evaluation of the situation. Also, Artest was hit with a cup- it wasn't a glass bottle or even a plastic bottle (both of which would have been worse).

I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't go and beat the crap out of someone for throwing a beer at us- and if we did, we would face the legal consequences.

I don't see hoe O'Neal, Jackson and Artest can get out of this situation without having charges filed.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 04:55 AM
I would be shocked if Assault charges were not filed at O'Neal and Jackson.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 04:58 AM
Nope, they aren't above being human . . . and are therefore subject to the laws of the land just like all of the rest of the humans--including assault. I'll be waiting with bated breath for the assault charges to be filed against Artest, Jackson and O'Neal, and a bevy of fans. I don't expect any assault charges to be filed against Wallace as his actions have been repeated dozens of times every year in the context of various sporting events . . . without legal repercussion.

I dont expect assault charges against Ben Wallace although I will be VERY dissapointed in the league if they dont suspend him... on court is on court, and he was FAR beyond the line. I also dont expect assault charges being brought on Artest simply because of what the Chief of Police had to say in an interview with Jim Gray. The law is the law and the hammer should come down on all parties, including Artest if he was out of his legal right. I do however think that the brunt of the league's actions will be brought against Artest simply becuase he is Ron Ron... Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'neal I will expect chrages against unless there was something in the tapes that I didnt see where peopl were attacking them first. As I was reading in regards to something else recently, defending someone else is not a valid defense.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 04:59 AM
I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't go and beat the crap out of someone for throwing a beer at us- and if we did, we would face the legal consequences.


did he actually swing at ANYONE before he was hit in the back of the head... Jackson is a different story as is JO

azhoops
11-20-2004, 05:04 AM
I am not sure what you mean. Artest was hit by a beer and ran up into the stands and tackled someone (it doesn't look the probable beer-tosser as he is holding a drink) before anyone else touched him. Then some fans try to pull him off, and he reponds with punches.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 05:07 AM
I am not sure what you mean. Artest was hit by a beer and ran up into the stands and tackled someone (it doesn't look the probable beer-tosser as he is holding a drink) before anyone else touched him. Then some fans try to pull him off, and he reponds with punches.

he didint actually swing at anyone until the guy hit him in the back of the head, after Stephen Jackson colcocked someone... Artest tackled him, but if you are calling what Artest did at that first contact assault then so is what Wallace did to Artest in the first place. And I will point out the only Piston's player in the stands trying to break anything up was the wild child himself Rasheed Wallace... I love Rasheed, always have

Daryl Zero
11-20-2004, 09:44 AM
It was nice to wake up and read this thread. Last night, the last thing I saw was Saunders, Legler, Anthony and Smith being complete idiots talking about how the players had a right to go up in the stands. I was furious and wished I could tell them off. ESPN couldn't find one person who had any sense.

Bison79
11-20-2004, 10:51 AM
I just watched some replays of the brawl.

All I gots to say is this, lowlife loser scum fans like the ones in the stands who were in that brawl last night, got what they deserved. Are you sure there weren't scumdevils there?

I don't give a rat's **** what happened on the court between the players, anytime a lowlife fan like those I saw last night starts something or brawls with the players is just pathetic.

If the Police dont' do anyhthing about it, why should players give their all and entertain lowlifes like that? If there was no division between the fans and the players, I wouldn't want to ever put on a jersey.

I once had that happen to me at an opposing team in HS when we were playing football, once the jackass fan hit me I unloaded on his ass, I think I broke his nose and two ribs, and I walked away a free man, no punishment for my action.

Merkin, that still means I'm a good man! :)

It just means I don't take **** from nobody when I'm on the field, if a fan ****s with me, he's open game, and I'll make the trash pay.

That's my two cents, sorry for ranting, but this **** has got to stop, it's horsesh!t, yelling at a player is one thing, but getting in their faces and throwing stuff at them?

I hope those fans rot in everlasting hell.

Taylor
11-20-2004, 11:20 AM
Just saw the end of that "highlight" . . . talk about mayhem. I think I saw some player jump onto a fan (maybe somebody involved in the fight) who was on the floor and start wailing on him. Nice . . .


I actually thought that part was cool! What the **** was that dude doing on the court? Jermain O'Neal was justified in clocking him. That guy, and his idiot buddy, same out on the court to confront Artest.

Taylor
11-20-2004, 11:27 AM
You dont have a problem with him going into the stands?

That's bullshyte. Its a plastic bottle, this happens in Europe all of the time...and you dont see football players running off the pitch into the stands.

In South America at soccer games, they throw plastic bags full of piss at people all the time. Just the other day, at a soccer game in Spain, "fans" were calling a black player a "monkey." That happens all the time in Europe, too. Does that mean it's o.k.?

Should Artest have gone into the stands? No, but what the hell makes some ******* fan think it's o.k. to throw a beer in a players face?

Taylor
11-20-2004, 11:31 AM
Let's say this happens against the Wildcats on Sunday against Virginia. Salim gets hit in the face with a bottle and goes into the stands and hits a fan. Other UofA players then go into the stands to defend Salim. I would bet every single person on this board would be outraged at the Virginia fans. Everyone would be defending the players and calling the Virginia fans a$$holes.
.


We are playing at Virginia Sunday. Not Maryland! :roll:

Taylor
11-20-2004, 11:37 AM
All Wallace did was help to start inciting a riot.

And like the rest of you, I think that ESPN and its slew of explayers are way off base.

Bearing Down on ESPN Defending The Poor Picked On Players. WTF is That?

Auercat


Is anybody here surprised? Ive nkown Greg Anthony was a huge prick since his jaw-wired-shut days. I HATE that *******.

Taylor
11-20-2004, 11:40 AM
Didn't Iverson go to jail for inciting a riot before he wound up at G-town? I wonder what the legal requirements for such a charge are...
I can see an assault and battery charge against Wallace, though as mentioned before it seems like most authorities have been loath to level charges in player-on-player altercations. But an inciting a riot type of situation seems rather far-fetched. My guess is it would require some sort of intent to start a riot, not just the intent to batter an individual.


Iverson was convicted of that and was in jail. Governor Wilder pardoned the prick and John "He's just a misunderstood young black man" Thompson gave him a scholi.

What was Iverson in jail for? Beating people over the head with a folding chair while in a high school brawl in a bowling alley.

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 12:04 PM
Screw You

I was just having a little fun, guess I took it to far. I'm sorry if you got offended.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:06 PM
No no real men walk away right? That's what you learn in like 5th grade. I'm not saying what Artest did was right but I don't think it was terribly wrong either. So if Artest picks up his water bottle, throws it at the fan and hits him square in the face it would have been ok? I think both are guilty-no doubt about that. But personally I don't hold the athletes at a higher standard. We pay to see them thus we should respect them, not throw **** at them. They should respect us to of course but I just don't see how one person is more at blame than the other

Artest is a coward. He runs away from Ben Wallace but goes after a normal sized human being a s fan. HE HAD THE POWER TO BE ABOVE THE FRAY. But instead he delivered the first blow. Like the fans who tossed things, the players are equally as culpable and deserve jail time. Because they are rich and famous makes them even more responsible for their actions. They should be ashamed.

Bearing Down on A Real Man Turning The Other Cheek In This Case

Auercat

jajoyce
11-20-2004, 12:13 PM
In South America at soccer games, they throw plastic bags full of piss at people all the time. Just the other day, at a soccer game in Spain, "fans" were calling a black player a "monkey." That happens all the time in Europe, too. Does that mean it's o.k.?

Should Artest have gone into the stands? No, but what the hell makes some ******* fan think it's o.k. to throw a beer in a players face?


Uh oh...I guess Spain and other South American countries are now on the axis of evil list.

Bison79
11-20-2004, 12:13 PM
But instead he delivered the first blow.

I'm not saying what Artest did was right, but he had the right to do it. Any ATHLETE knows that. Any athlete who has been in that situation knows how Artest feels.

Auer, the first blow was the jackmeoff fan who threw the bottle, FYI.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:14 PM
Is anybody here surprised? Ive nkown Greg Anthony was a huge prick since his jaw-wired-shut days. I HATE that *******.

Greg Anthony would be the first to react like Artest. No wonder he and Legler were sniffing the Jock of the players in their "commentaries". I remember the cr*p Anthony and his felon teamates at UNLV used to talk during games. It wasn't the normal hoops trash talk. they used to say things like the following:

* We know where you live
* I just did your sister
* I'm going to f*ck up your family after the game
* Bend over b*tch, I'm going to give it you up your ***

Bottom line in this- The game was intense. Wallce overreacted on a foul due to Artests reputation. Artest the p*ssy backs down. An idiot fan throws a beer. Artest like a coward attacks the fan and is backed up by that Mensa Steve Jackson. Artest then throws a punch at a fan on the floor. Jermaine O"Neal then sucker punches the next guy. Artest runs off of the court like a coward. Here comes the beer and the chair. What a disagrace and EVERYONE is at fault.

Bearing Down on Anthony and His Idiot Sidekicks Siding With The Poor Picked On Players. Huh?

Auercat

Bison79
11-20-2004, 12:16 PM
but if you are calling what Artest did at that first contact assault then so is what Wallace did to Artest in the first place. And I will point out the only Piston's player in the stands trying to break anything up was the wild child himself Rasheed Wallace... I love Rasheed, always have

You're right budd1e, the actual first contact was Wallace.

But players expect that, and I have no problem with players fighting, because they know the consequences.

The fan threw the first assault, plan and simple, anyone can see that. It may not have been a weapon, but throwing beer in someone's face was the first assault.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:18 PM
I'm not saying what Artest did was right, but he had the right to do it. Any ATHLETE knows that. Any athlete who has been in that situation knows how Artest feels.

Auer, the first blow was the jackmeoff fan who threw the bottle, FYI.


Bison we often hear that fans should never go on the court. The opposite is also true, The players should never, ever go into the stands. Artest was hit with a beer. But he is still the first to throw a punch. And why the heck did Steven Jackson then go in and start swinging?

Bottom line- Fans need to stay in the stands and the players need to stay out of them. Getting hit with a beer is no excuse for Artest going into the stands after a person half his size. He's paid and trained (by NBA classes) to be above that.

Bearing Down on Real Men Not Reacting To That Type Of Provocation (And This Is Coming From A Born Fighter)

Auercat

Bison79
11-20-2004, 12:23 PM
Bison we often hear that fans should never go on the court. The opposite is also true, The players should never, ever go into the stands. Artest was hit with a beer. But he is still the first to throw a punch. And why the heck did Steven Jackson then go in and start swinging?

Going into the stands may have been wrong, but I would rather defend myself than have some rent-a-cop who could get his ass kicked by my cousin in a wheelchair try to defend me.

I'm sure that's not why Artest went after the man, Artest is a loose cannon, always has been always will be.

But if it was me, my first thought is I have to defend myself and no rent-a-cop or a real cop for that matter is going to do it for me. This coming from someone who has never had cops help him out in these situations where I was in the right , but my life was in danger, and a cop didn't help me out.

I guess you can tell I have no FAITH in our boys in blue. No offense to OC, I'm sure he's a great cop, but all the ones I have come in contact with couldn't wipe my ass for me.

I can see your point, honestly, it was wrong for the players to go into the crowd.

I think I'm more pissed at the fans that ended up on the court, and the rent-a-cops who didn't keep them off.

My opinion on fans on the field/court is this: "enter at your own risk, you enter my land, I'm going to make you pay" Unless of course they have a reason to be there :lol:

It was a sickening sight, and it's the reason I don't watch the NBA aka Thug Ball Association.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:24 PM
Nope, they aren't above being human . . . and are therefore subject to the laws of the land just like all of the rest of the humans--including assault. I'll be waiting with bated breath for the assault charges to be filed against Artest, Jackson and O'Neal, and a bevy of fans. I don't expect any assault charges to be filed against Wallace as his actions have been repeated dozens of times every year in the context of various sporting events . . . without legal repercussion.

Perfect analysis of the situation. The players reacted violently. They deserve to go to jail every bit as much as the fans. Just because they are rich and famous does not excuse their poor behavior. The minute Artest (who as I reiterate is a complete coward) went into the stands, all bets were off.

Bearing Down on Mutliple Arrests of Fans and Players

Auercat

Bison79
11-20-2004, 12:25 PM
Perfect analysis of the situation. The players reacted violently. They deserve to go to jail every bit as much as the fans. Just because they are rich and famous does not excuse their poor behavior. The minute Artest (who as I reiterate is a complete coward) went into the stands, all bets were off.

Bearing Down on Mutliple Arrests of Fans and Players

Auercat

Agreed, but we all know that the players are going to get slapped with a fine, and a pat on the back and whisper not to do it again.

While the fans will get jail time, and I hope the ones on the court do. The ones in the stands, eh, I say both sides cancel each other out I guess.

Auercat
11-20-2004, 12:27 PM
Bison,

I guess that I'm just mad that ESPN is going off solely on the fans. The players are paid to be PROFESSIONALS. Professional people do not react like caged animals. Professional people turn the other cheek when provoked by others. NBA players are anything but professionals. It's too bad that we as the fans ensure they get compensated like they are.

Bearing Down on What A Pro Does

Auercat

Bison79
11-20-2004, 12:28 PM
Auercat

One of those situations I'm glad I'm Deaf and the captions are off. :roll:

Taylor
11-20-2004, 01:14 PM
Greg Anthony would be the first to react like Artest.

I remember the cr*p Anthony and his felon teamates at UNLV used to talk during games. It wasn't the normal hoops trash talk. they used to say things like the following:


* Bend over b*tch, I'm going to give it you up your ***



Auercat

ROFLMAO!

Uh, "BE MY *****, I'M GONNA ASS RAPE YOU!" LOL! How completely gay is that for a latent gay homophobe to say? That's hilarious.

What did Mo, Lid, Chris, Wayne, and Wookie say to that? "Um, it's not like that here. Why don't you save it for Larry in the shower?" LOL! :roll:

Taylor
11-20-2004, 01:17 PM
No offense to OC, I'm sure he's a great cop.




OMFG, THAT IS, WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE MOST UNINTENTIONALLY FUNNY THING ANYONE HAS EVER POSTED HERE!!!

Bison, OC is not a cop.

Bison79
11-20-2004, 01:18 PM
Taylor, thanks for clearing that up LOL :)

(goes and hides his face) :D

Taylor
11-20-2004, 01:25 PM
Bison,

I guess that I'm just mad that ESPN is going off solely on the fans. The players are paid to be PROFESSIONALS. Professional people do not react like caged animals. Professional people turn the other cheek when provoked by others. NBA players are anything but professionals. It's too bad that we as the fans ensure they get compensated like they are.

Bearing Down on What A Pro Does

Auercat


Auer, they are basketball players. Putting professionals in caps means you are expecting them to behave like doctors, lawyers, and bankers.

The guys in the fight are MORONS who can hoop better than just about anyone on the planet. They are NOT professionals in the same sense that someone with an MBA from Warton, or a PhD from Harvard is a professional.

Remember, Artest is the idiot who wanted "personal time" as soon as the season started so he could promote his "album". When asked if his actions were contrary to the "integrity of the game" he said "I don't know. I've been meaning to ask my dad what that means." Stephen Jackson's mental abilities, or complete lack thereof, are well documented. Same with Tinsley. Jermain O'Neal never went to college, and probably barely went to high school. Enough said.













p.s. Let's not forget this one:
Reporter: "Did you go to the Acropolis?"
Shaq: "I don't know, we went to a bunch of different clubs. I can't rememebr what they were all called."

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 01:27 PM
In South America at soccer games, they throw plastic bags full of piss at people all the time. Just the other day, at a soccer game in Spain, "fans" were calling a black player a "monkey." That happens all the time in Europe, too. Does that mean it's o.k.?

Should Artest have gone into the stands? No, but what the hell makes some ******* fan think it's o.k. to throw a beer in a players face?

No it's not ok....In Europe, if you get caught doing that, you get banned for life. At AS Roma, when a fan threw a coin at the ref, UEFA made them play all of their home Champion League games in front of empty stadiums. And trust me, Fifa is going to throw the book at Spain. Fifa and UEFA have their way of dealing with these issues without having the players going up into the stands to fight.

Let the cops do their jobs, it's not the players job to regulate.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 01:38 PM
I really dont understand any of the logic in calling Artest a coward. It was obvious to me that he was trying to be above the situation and not get involved when Ben Wallace decided to be a little ***** and start some ****. He was however yelled at and HIT with flying things from the stands and quite frankly I would have reacted the same way. In my personal opinion Artest was justified, as I pointed out before he "went after" someone but didnt actually throw a punch until he was hit from behind. If he was out of line as judged by the investigating officers, then ****ing charge him. I do think that JO and Stephen Hunter should be charged, becuase defending someone else is not an acceptable defense. To call Artest a coward tells me that you havent seen the fight in its entirety, Ive seen the live version twice, and seen the highlights several times... the highlights dont show the whole picture. I dont dissagree that everyone in the wrong(including any players) should be charged, and if it is investigated fully there should be about 2 players charged and about 15 fans. By far THE worst display of "fans" ever.

PointGuardU03
11-20-2004, 01:41 PM
I know I'm a little late to the discussion on this one, but I still had to weigh in. I personally have the slanted bias of hatin Detroit fans, so bear with me. Artest was wrong, Ben Wallace was wrong, and the fans in Detroit were wrong. But if I detach my humanity, the synical side of me is pretty excited about all this. This is easily the most exciting thing to happen in the NBA in a long time. The next 3 Pacers-Pistons game are now must see, giving us 5 must see games already(the other 2 being Kobw vs. Shaq) this season. No NBA season in recent memory has delivered that much. It will also gives us loads to talk about for a few weeks. I still can't believe everything that win down last night, just insane. Lost in all of this, by the media anyway, was Wallace losing his cool just because his team was getting run. All in all this will leave people calling this a moral out cry and demanding several people's heads, which they'll prolly get. The best opinion I've read so far is ESPN's Ray Ratto, I recommend all of you check it out.

ZONACAT
11-20-2004, 01:52 PM
I've seen the replay 30 times atleast.

Artest should be suspended for the season. He could have just as easily pointed at the fan who did it, and than the Pistons could have had a cop come over and arrest him. Instead, he went ape shyte.

As LK pointed out, throwing a beer at someone is not an excuse for assault. You do not fight your paying customers.....ever.

muffley
11-20-2004, 01:59 PM
Bottom line in this- The game was intense. Wallce overreacted on a foul due to Artests reputation. Artest the p*ssy backs down. An idiot fan throws a beer. Artest like a coward attacks the fan and is backed up by that Mensa Steve Jackson. Artest then throws a punch at a fan on the floor. Jermaine O"Neal then sucker punches the next guy. Artest runs off of the court like a coward. Here comes the beer and the chair. What a disagrace and EVERYONE is at fault.

Auercat again puts everything perfectly, and succinctly.

mongrelcat
11-20-2004, 02:17 PM
*sigh* ESPN has played this non stop.....we're going to be hearing about this for the next couple of weeks. Now that I see more footage it looks like Artest hit a guy in the stands, and another fan who went on the court- two seperate incidents. I'm not even sure if he attacked the right guy. What the hell was Stephen Jackson doing? He wasn't even provoked! I say a minimum of 10 games for Jackson and Artest. At least 8 for wallace and a couple for O'Neal.

muffley
11-20-2004, 02:22 PM
I would say only a couple for Wallace, and much more for O'Neal. O'Neal sucker punched a short chubby couch potato guy after Artest knocked him down. How was O'Neal even involved before that? Wallace certainly overreacted and should be punished, going for the neck and face, but Artest should have given him the easy layup with the game about over.

I still think Stern is going to p u s s y his way out of this like he did was Sprewell.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 02:47 PM
I think wallace is being overlooked. The foul wasn't hard in the slightest and Wallace completely overreacted. Also, Auer, you are calling Artest a coward because he walked away from the wallace fight. But if he goes and fights him he is going to get criticized all the same. It seems that for most people, he could do no right in that situation.

I'm not with ESPN on this one. I do think the players should be punished and I do think everybody is at fault. Artest should not have gone in the stands but I do un derstand why he did. Jackson is an idiot who just started wailing on people. Jones did nothing but get punched in the back of the dead by some idiot. The guy that Artest and O'Neal punched was on the court. He was going up to Artest. He had every right to get his ass kicked and shouldn't have been on the court in the first place.

This just does not happen in a lot of other places. Fans would not have started hitting everyone and such. I wonder if there was more provocation and stuff I did not see or if Artest just lost it probably because he was still mad at the Wallace situation. Detroit fans are nuts, always have been. The owner of the team is a complete moron. Instead of blaming everyone he said it was Artest's fault because he went to lie down on the table, thus he was asking for it. No no it can't possibly be the fans of your teams or the fact Artest went into the crowd, it was right from the beginning. That bastard sat on a table

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 03:19 PM
F the fans for doing that, i agree with artest going in the stands, you pay to watch the game, if anyone came into your work then threw beer all over you, you would also go after them. I like Stephen Jackson more then ever now, Austin Croshere is a *****.

Chicat
11-20-2004, 03:21 PM
I like Stephen Jackson more then ever now

I'm sorry, but WHAT??? :mad:

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:24 PM
I'm with Chicat on that one. How can you like anybody more after that?

muffley
11-20-2004, 03:33 PM
Nov 20, 2:24 PM EST

NBA suspends 3 Pacers, 1 Piston for brawl

By LARRY LAGE
AP Sports Writer

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history.

The suspensions were indefinite, and the league was still investigating Friday night's melee, which commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable - a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA."

The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures "so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night."

muffley
11-20-2004, 03:35 PM
I'm with Chicat on that one. How can you like anybody more after that?

Again, it's the success of the NBA's getto thug mentality teaching that if you get dissed, you respond back even harder. Just another reason to hate the NBA.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:38 PM
You know what's funny? It was reported that Prince just sat on the bench. He didn't help or anything thus technically he is the only one that can't get suspended. I am wondering how this effects the team though if anyone noticed. Personally that's not a great teammate to me if he isn't helping me out

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 03:47 PM
I agree with the names...I just hope the League doesn't get carried away and shackle two teams for being attacked...

Every single fan that was involved needs to be found and fined and jailed...no question.

It should be too hard as the tickets purchased were likely of the season-ticket variety or so expensive that they were paid for by credit card...

There are ways to deal with the punks that escalated, if not caused the ugly scenes off and on the court.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:26 PM
I'm not saying what Artest did was right, but he had the right to do it. Any ATHLETE knows that. Any athlete who has been in that situation knows how Artest feels.

Auer, the first blow was the jackmeoff fan who threw the bottle, FYI.

Again, I was sarcastic in my last reply to this kind of assertion . . . but, seriously, which Right is this?

I don't understand you folks, at all. I'm not sure if you noticed, but the man that Artest assaulted (not a right in the Constitution that I've read) was holding his freakin' beer when Artest jumped him. Unless he was drinking from two beer cups, doesn't logic dictate that this was not the man who assaulted ( :rolleyes: ) him with the plastic beer cup?

The whole situation is pathetic, but the rationalizations coming from ESPN are the cherry on top. If fans are making racial slurs that are so demeaning and nasty that you feel the need to go in the stands and beat the hell out of them . . . perhaps players and coaches should alert security and have the offending people removed from the arena.

Blaming Wallace is assinine. There are dozens of those kinds of confrontations yearly . . . with no aftereffects. His overreaction to a hard foul did not cause this melee. I also love the characterization of the innocent Artest. While a relatively unnoticeable behavior in light of the ensuing insanity, his behavior after he was pushed by Wallace was far from innocent and peace loving. He dramatically drapes himself over the scorers table Rodman-style, then lies down on the table and insolently puts his arms behind his head and crosses his knees like his mistress is feeding him grapes at a picnic . . . and then he poses in that position for about 5 seconds before the beer comes flying at him. That whole move was intended to incite a reaction, and it did--just not the one he was expecting.

UofAcat23
11-20-2004, 04:27 PM
From AOL news:

"Just when it appeared tempers had died down, Artest was struck by a cup and beverage thrown from the stands. He jumped up, and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

"He was on top of me, pummeling me," fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. "He asked me, 'Did you do it? I said, 'No, man. No!"'

--------------------

What a freakin' psycho, he was actually looking for the guy who threw the beer!

azhoops
11-20-2004, 04:29 PM
Austin Corshere is a *****? Why, because he didn't assault anyone? You have some issues.

GlobalCat
11-20-2004, 04:46 PM
I think Jackson came away looking the worst out of all the players because he just went into the stands and starting swinging at random. Pure thug/punk. I stated this on another thread, but once again I am glad he never played a game at UofA.

Artest went nuts into the stands, but as a reaction to someone throwing the cup at him. By the angle that the cup hit him, I doubt he was hit by the dude he attacked. Maybe because he was the smallest guy he saw.

I am glad players with better heads on their shoulders who deserved some respect for not being a total ******* and tried to break up the melee or stay out of the situation. Getting suspended is a great way to help the team. Croshere, Prince, and Wallace and others who tried to stop it or just stay out of the way did the right thing.

Reminder, Artest is a ****ty teammate and I would never help him out if I played with him. Let's remember he wanted to leave his TEAM for a month to promote his rap album. What a great teammate.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:49 PM
"WE MUST DEFEND THIS HOUSE!!!" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

{where's the vomit emoticon?}

Bison79
11-20-2004, 05:03 PM
So where do we, athletes, draw the line from bullsh!t the ****ed up fans in this world give us?

He had no right to go into the stands, but he DOES have a right to defend himself.

All I can say is, unless you've been in that situation before (I've lost track of times that I have been and it's hard to control yourself when you have a bonehead in the stands), then you really can't understand how it is. The fans are LUCKY to have him there to play for them and put on a show, he shouldn't have to put up with the BS from the crowd.

You can talk about being righteous and turning the other cheek and being above the fray, but until you're in that situation, you REALLY don't know how it feels.

Players usually do turn the other cheek and stay above the fray, but sometimes fans need to be put in their place. Rent-a-cops and police sure as hell ain't going to do it. Sure they might get some jailtime but they'll just come back and do it again.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, the players should be fined and suspended for entering the stands, yes. But they should not be fined for defending themselves

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 05:15 PM
He had no right to go into the stands, but he DOES have a right to defend himself.


Defend himself against what? This is the core of the problem.


The fans are LUCKY to have him there to play for them and put on a show, he shouldn't have to put up with the BS from the crowd.

You are kidding, right? Wow . . . he is lucky to have fans coming to the games and paying his overinflated salary--like the fan who he beat the crap out of. Who is Ron Artest without the fans (and therefore the NBA)? Based on his mental issues, I'm guessing he is Inmate #33838FDGS82315 in the New York State Penal system.

Chicat
11-20-2004, 05:18 PM
Hey JMark! Remember the good old days when you called this board "underused"? Be careful, sometimes you get just what you ask for. :rolleyes:

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 05:39 PM
The players should be charged not just suspended, and each and every fan involved should be charged and not allowed into games for a year. But I dont see how you can put all the blame on the players, and continue to call Artest a coward for trying to avoid the confrontation on the court. All I can say is that I would have done the same thing, when playing sports especially in a heated game, emotions boil and some things cause them to boil over, a cup of beer would put me over the edge. Artest shouldnt have been in the stands and should be suspended, but I can understand why he was there and I would have been there too. Criticizing his teammates for aiding him when he was getting punched from behind is not fully comprehending the situation. These guys are together day in and day out and are essentially a family, are you telling me you wouldnt defend your brother? Larry Brown said in his press conference that he questioned his players for not going into the stands to help their peers, Sheed was the only Piston's players trying to break anything up. There were alot of cowards in this situation, namely the people swinging at the back of guys heads, and Ben Wallace for being a little ***** about a foul.

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 06:03 PM
Stephen Jackson didn't wait to see if Artest was being punched from behind. He IMMEDIATELY followed Artest into the stands and was just looking for something to hit. Watch the unedited ESPN feed and you hear the announcers say something about Jackson being the one looking for a fight down on the floor even before Artest gets hit with the beer.

muffley
11-20-2004, 06:08 PM
The players were defending themselves? By kicking the sh1t out of someone weaker and smaller? I bet every one of the 26 NBA players (world class athletes) on the court could beat up every single one of the 11,000 fans or whatever there.

Fair fights they were not.

I bet you guys who say the players were defending themselves used to pick on kindergardners when you were in 6th grade.

Morgan
11-20-2004, 06:18 PM
Stephen Jackson didn't wait to see if Artest was being punched from behind. He IMMEDIATELY followed Artest into the stands and was just looking for something to hit. Watch the unedited ESPN feed and you hear the announcers say something about Jackson being the one looking for a fight down on the floor even before Artest gets hit with the beer.

Jackson definitely looked the worst in that whole situation. He was just looking to throw with someone, anyone and he finally found it in the crowd.

Artest actually was doing pretty well just chilling on the table until he got hit with the beer from the stands. The Piston fans who came out onto the court were idiots, but I don't agree they got what they deserved. Jermaine O'Neal knocked the crap out of that one fan, he didn't need to do that. Artest was probably third most responsibile in the whole brawl behind Ben Wallace who started and Stephen Jackson who kept it going.

The best thing of the whole brawl was the irony of Rasheed Wallace playing peace maker. Long branded as the biggest thug in the NBA, Wallace has quickly shed that reputation by winning a championship.

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 06:19 PM
Hey JMark! Remember the good old days when you called this board "underused"? Be careful, sometimes you get just what you ask for. :rolleyes:

It's just sad that it took something like this for most to feel any amotion towards the NBA...it really isn't indictive of the League, but unfortunately, like you said, when you celebrate and promote thugs, this is what you get.

It really is a shame, becuase there were three great games last night that are barely even an afterthought now...this isn't the way it's supposed to be.

The League needs to do something, preferably not a one-sided punishment of the players involved, but consequenses for those fans involved, the security that was slow to act and themselves for having lax rules reguarding the Fan/Player relationship that tend to lean unfairly towards the fans...

As one, I'm all for freedom of speech (within good taste) and have the right to say a player sucks...but when a player becomes involved in physical action or in deed or by inflamitory remarks (race, etc...), they need to be dealt with just as harshly, so the true fans needn't worry about situations like this.

In recent years it seems there has been too many instances, maybe even an epidemic of cases of Fan/Player violence or the like...

Fans of both College and Pro teams bringing up loved one's who have died ro are sick and in the hospital. Fans going overboard with their "cheering" making insensative remarks or even racial slurs. Fans throwing things onto the field of play, running onto the field of play or initiating physical contact with players...

It's just wholly gotten out of hand, not just in basketball, but in all sports, unfortunately, this will be the rallying cry for change and will be used as the best example for the change...thus giving the NBA the almost unfair image of some drunk fans and emotionally unstable players...

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 06:24 PM
The players were defending themselves? By kicking the sh1t out of someone weaker and smaller? I bet every one of the 26 NBA players (world class athletes) on the court could beat up every single one of the 11,000 fans or whatever there.

Fair fights they were not.

I bet you guys who say the players were defending themselves used to pick on kindergardners when you were in 6th grade.

Yes, but who picked the fight...the drunken, idiotic fans...

They started it and most got what they deserved, some didn't and will get financial reparations...

It's still wrong, but the fans started the Fan/Player violence. And I saw plenty of willing and able "fans" ready to take on a couple players. Fair fight or not, if the Kindergardner starts the fight and wants it to continue, then the sixth grader, while using poor judgement, is partially in the right.

Like I said, there were several 6-foot+, 250-pound+ men trying to make a name for themselves...It could only take one punch either way.

Bison79
11-20-2004, 06:26 PM
BJBJ

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm an athlete, and I know how he feels, end of discussion

Bison79
11-20-2004, 06:27 PM
I bet you guys who say the players were defending themselves used to pick on kindergardners when you were in 6th grade.

Excuse me?

Muffley, go **** yourself. I don't want to know you and I don't pretend to know you so I won't comment on who you are, so don't comment on who I am just because I'm an athlete that understands where other athletes are coming from

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 06:40 PM
I'm sorry, but WHAT??? :mad:
You stand up for you guy, you go and fight for him, he went into the stands after artest and punched a guy who threw a full beer in Artest face.

If i was a player and my teammate went into the stands, i would go after him. Were they right? IMO, yes. Artest fouled Wallace, Wallace overreacted it is basketball not as thou we have not seen it before. Artest backed away smartly and just got out the way.

The fans were all out of line. This had nothing to do with them, they brought it all upon themselves, and they acted like drunken *******s and made the first move. Action like that will cause a reaction so they must understand that.

Why do you throw a beer at someone on the court, you have no right, just like no one has a right to go into your place of work and throw a beer on you. If they would have not throw the beer would artest gone into the stands and punched someone? No way.

Stephen Jackson went after his guy, if you do not understand that relationship of a teammate you never will. For many guys, on a real team that is your family, if you do not understand that concept then you just will not.

Croshere had a chance to stand up to those two idiots who came on to the court, who had no right or reason to be there, he let them go, you think its right I think he is a punk. After watching what had just happened I believe he needs to stand up for this teammates, this I just me. I think in relation to were many of these guys came from, this is the reaction you will get when you disrespect someone who came from the queens bridge (seems like a silly argument but if you have lived there and I have then you would understand the rationality respect is a huge issue), was it warranted, in their eyes yes.

Would each individual act differently, yes. Would I have acted like artest, yes. When I played basketball, my family was that team, and I would fight for them as such, people forget the tight knit relationships that are bonded, and when rage is ignited action follows. Good, bad, it happened, itís a moot point arguing whose opinion is right or wrong, I just like Jackson for standing up for his guy, if I was on that team he is the type of guy I know I can trust and will fight for me (literally) on every play, and Croshere I would have no faith in.

A few things cannot be ignored, the fans are at all fault more then the players, they brought these actions upon themselves by throwing beers and other things at players.

Detroit is at fault for not having enough security and what the hell are all those guys doing with full beers with 45 seconds left to go in the game??? They need to cut beer sales off at the start of the 4th quarter otherwise they are adding full to the fire. Artest is not free from blame, but most rational individuals would have acted the same way.


And it is my opinion and does not really mean sh*t.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 06:45 PM
You are a ****ing idiot

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 06:47 PM
You are a ****ing idiot


good argument, attack my character and not the argument. Moron.

Tell me where i am wrong with my own opinion?

its my own thought on the issue, your moral character justifys that i am "idiot". Come with something or just go back to pissing your life away calling people stupid because you cannot not come with real argument.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 06:51 PM
it's asll been said already, read the rest of the posts

Chicat
11-20-2004, 06:52 PM
Ziggiles, you do realize that Jackson was doing very little protecting of Artest from the fans, and a whole lot of kicking random people's asses, don't you? He was out of control and if you can't see that from the video of that incident then you need to watch it again. If my buddy and I are at a bar and he gets a beer thrown at him and he goes after the guy who did it I wouldn't then run over to the pool table, grab a random guy and start whoopin' his ass. The fact that Jackson is the one that you think comes out the best in this doesn't say much for your ideas on right and wrong. The people that come out of this looking the best are the players who stayed out of it altogether or the people that tried their hardest to stop the melee. Everyone else who participated is a jackass.

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 06:56 PM
I still say that Jackson is prolly the most responsible of all the players. Artest's inital foul was hard, but not that hard. Wallaces overreation to said foul is understandable since it was Artest and the foul was a bit unnecessary (given the time and score). Jackson was just stupid. Someone here said it looked like he was just looking to hit someone...that's aexactly it. From egging on Rasheed and Rip on the court to his flailing away off of it, he's the one player who had the least reason to be in the crowd. He wasn't assaulted or doused in beer.

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 07:01 PM
Ziggiles, you do realize that Jackson was doing very little protecting of Artest from the fans, and a whole lot of kicking random people's asses, don't you? He was out of control and if you can't see that from the video of that incident then you need to watch it again. If my buddy gets a beer thrown at him and he goes after the guy who did it I wouldn't then run over to the pool table, grab a random guy and start whoopin' his ass. The fact that Jackson is the one that you think comes out the best in this doesn't say much for your ideas on right and wrong. The people that come out of this looking the best are the players who stayed out of it altogether or the people that tried their hardest to stop the melee. Everyone else who participated is a jackass.


i watched the video, FROM what i saw, Artest goes into the stands, Jackson has done nothing yet, artest goes after a guy still nothing from Jackson. Artest is held by fans so he cannot throw a punch, then another fan throws a beer in artest face while he is being held, Jackson punches that guy. That is not random. Yet i respect you to much to argue this moot point, we have differining opinions, and i appreciate the fact you make a statement and just do not say that i am an a*shole for my way of thinking or my opinion in this case. So thank you.

I do agree not doing anything is the smartest move but, as a teammate or as a friend are the eyes i am looking at this from, thus my form of rationality.


it's asll been said already, read the rest of the posts

you attacked me, and it has not been said its all been written already, you call me an idiot but will not say why. Post it.


In addition, let me clarify something

Jackson was not right but I like him for fighting/standing up for his guy. If was on the block and someone dissed my guy and threw something at him then I would go and after him, mob mentality yes, but it is not unprovoked and people must understand that their actions will bring more like action. Violence only begets violence, i do not hold Jackson to be wrong but he is not right either. I understand the mentality and thinking, if you do not you just will not and find them to all be holligans. Nothing will change that, it as though we are running a race against our own past we can change nothing but we can antagonize it to death.

I do not like Croshere because he did nothing, if he was my teammate, you need to stand up for them.

muffley
11-20-2004, 07:04 PM
Excuse me?

Muffley, go **** yourself. I don't want to know you and I don't pretend to know you so I won't comment on who you are, so don't comment on who I am just because I'm an athlete that understands where other athletes are coming from

Relax dude. All I was saying, Bison, was that Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson are bigger and stronger than any else else in the stands and could kick their butt in a fair fight. If if you don't know the difference between defending yourself from harm which they are entitled to and defending your "honor" I feel sorry for you.

I really don't feel that those players were ever in harms way.

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 07:12 PM
How hard is this to understand? Being hit with a beer does not legally entitle someone to run out and attack random people. Your teammate being an ******* does not entitle you to go after him and fight other people. Most of us have been on teams at some point, most of us have taken **** from fans, and we haven't reacted like that. These guys are adults, they are professionals, and it was a ****ing PLASTIC BEER CUP. Artest put himself in danger by going into the crowd. Jackson put himself in danger by going into the crowd. I do not feel sorry for either of them at all, and have no doubt but that they both deserve to go to prison. Our society cannot countenance or legitimate violent reactions to ugly, but ultimiately harmless provocations.
The fan who threw the beer did not get what he deserved. Most likely he was not even involved in the actual fighting, were that even an appropriate response. What that fan deserved was to have a ciriminal complaint filed against him, the weekend in jail and a nice 10K fine awaiting him when he checks out on Monday/

Bison79
11-20-2004, 07:15 PM
If if you don't know the difference between defending yourself from harm which they are entitled to and defending your "honor" I feel sorry for you.

I know the difference.

I think this discussion is dead, there's no more point to arguing, I have my opinion you have yours, I'm hoping you allow me to have my own, unlike SOME people? :)

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 07:15 PM
Bison, azhoops, muffley and Ziggiles, please take any personal invective to PM or rep before the mods get involved and close this thread down. This has been a great discussion up to the previous page.

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 07:21 PM
How hard is this to understand? Being hit with a beer does not legally entitle someone to run out and attack random people. Your teammate being an ******* does not entitle you to go after him and fight other people. Most of us have been on teams at some point, most of us have taken **** from fans, and we haven't reacted like that. These guys are adults, they are professionals, and it was a ****ing PLASTIC BEER CUP. Artest put himself in danger by going into the crowd. Jackson put himself in danger by going into the crowd. I do not feel sorry for either of them at all, and have no doubt but that they both deserve to go to prison. Our society cannot countenance or legitimate violent reactions to ugly, but ultimiately harmless provocations.

The fan who threw the beer did not get what he deserved. Most likely he was not even involved in the actual fighting, were that even an appropriate response. What that fan deserved was to have a ciriminal complaint filed against him, the weekend in jail and a nice 10K fine awaiting him when he checks out on Monday/

Well-said, Kenny. I got beer poured on me in a Tucson nightclub once, but does that give me the right to go after the little girl who did it? No, and I didn't. I asked why, she gave me some stupid drunk answer, and I just rolled my eyes, laughed and walked away. It's easy to do if you can just realize beer-pourers are idiots who shouldn't be taken personally in the first place.

Perhaps we're presuming too much, though, saying that NBA basketball players are adults.

muffley
11-20-2004, 07:24 PM
I think this discussion is dead, there's no more point to arguing, I have my opinion you have yours, I'm hoping you allow me to have my own, unlike SOME people? :)

Fair enough.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 07:38 PM
I apologize ziggilies, simply put, I just don't agree with you- it is not appropriate to go into the stands and attack someone.

GlobalCat
11-20-2004, 08:09 PM
Was Jackson standing up for the same teammate who wanted to leave the team for a month to promote a rap album? If I were Jackson, I'd kick back and watch my treacherous "teammate" get his ass kicked. That would teach Artest a lesson about team loyalty. Be loyal to the team and they will be loyal to you. Only Jackson followed Artest into the crowd to fight -- the rest of the team tried to break it up or stay out of it until they were attacked by the fans. Plus after the initial Wallace/Artest incident, Jackson was the one who tried his best to provoke the Pistons into fighting him. Pure Thug.

Now if a real teammate was directly attacked by a fan, I'd have his back in a heartbeat. But none of this S. Jackson bull **** where he grabbed the closest person he saw (and likely not responisble for the cup) and started swinging. What a turd!

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 08:12 PM
When I went to my first college party some guy spilt a beer all over me. I tried to go up to him and knock him out (hopefully) when my friend pulled me back and said I just can't do it. I have to live with it because it sucks and it happens. However at that moment I was pissed and I did want to do something, thus I do understand Artest being pissed off. There is not one more at fault than the other in my mind. You can point at so many different things. Artest doesnt get the bottle in the face he doesn't go in the stands. If the guy never throws the bottle it never happens. If Wallace has a brain nothing happens. If Stephen Jackson went to a decent school or got taught something in life nothing happens. There's just so much. I do think however that in all of it, Artest should not get the worse response. I think Jackson is a moron. I personally just saw him come up and hit a guy.

Now from what I have heard, the guy Artest attacked was not even the guy that threw the beer. The guy in the hat that was punching him in the back of the head is the guy that threw the beer. What bothered me the most was what happened with Jones. Jones was doing nothing and the guy just started pounding him from behind.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 08:13 PM
Stop with the rap album crap because it is just that-crap. Carlisle even said that Artest never even mentioned the album, he just asked for time off. If it was due to the album then fine but he did not mention the album directly.

GlobalCat
11-20-2004, 08:20 PM
So he wanted time off to heal his body then (if the rap is not true as speculated in the media - my apologizes - source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1921048).

Even then why does he need time off to rest when the season has just started? To me, he has been disloyal to his team regardless of his motivations for time off.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 08:24 PM
He does have a history of injuries. But I do agree that he probably should have played. Then again if he gets hurt and is out for a long period I'm wishing I would have given him the time off. I understand why people hate Artest but for every Artest there is about 10 other players I hate in the NBA. Last night was just a representation of what a horrible league it has become-a league that has completely forgot the basis of what made it so popular years ago

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 08:50 PM
Last night was just a representation of what a horrible league it has become-a league that has completely forgot the basis of what made it so popular years ago
-----------------------------------

So find ways to support the teams aren't thugs...Utah, Phoenix, San Antonio...

The League notices the popularity and makes rules accordingly, as the League wants it's popular teams to succeed...

But if you never watched an NBA game again, I would completely understand...This mess will take years if not even decades to fully run its course.

To me, it's a defining moment not unlike the Kermit Washington/Rudy T incident in the 70's...rules were changed, the game was cleaed up and all of a sudden, the 80's arrived with new hope...Sometimes you have to hit bottom before you realize how far you've fallen. Hey Stern...THUD!!!

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 08:50 PM
BJBJ

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm an athlete, and I know how he feels, end of discussion

That's fine . . . we can agree to disagree. I'm not sure what to make of that last part. Do you think you are/were the only athlete who participated in this discussion?

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 09:04 PM
There are teams that I enjoy watching. I love the Suns this year and that game against the Lakers was unbelievable. There are reason where I may watch a game but it would be on a game to game basis not something where I love watching it

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 09:11 PM
the most ignored fact is the FANS, those RUNNING the PALACE at AUBURN HILLS are most at fault. Why did the fans have FULL beers that late into the game?? the nba must answer this question. Why was there not more security ?? And the fans need to take the BLUNT of blame, instead of it all being shot at Artest, Jackson and O'Neil. Whatever act was commited was brought upon themselves, this cannot be refuted, you act like an A-hole, then you are going to be treated like one, thus the chance of a big basketball player coming into the stands and punching you in the face if you throw a beer at him. Security obviously could not stop anything from happening so why not (this is a stupid last argument but it is the truth, once again i understand the rational of the players actions, I do not argee with it by any means but i understand, and cannot hold fault soley against them).

Daryl Zero
11-20-2004, 09:23 PM
No Ziggiles, you don't get it. It is not the fans running wild. It is a few bad eggs. When the players go into the stands they are (1) attacking people they don't know did anything wrong (2) making sure innocent bystanders get hurt and (3) inciting the bad eggs to riot. Don't tell me that innocent fans who just came to watch the game are assuming the risk because some idiot throws a beer on a player who decides to go hulk.

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 09:34 PM
No Ziggiles, you don't get it. It is not the fans running wild. It is a few bad eggs. When the players go into the stands they are (1) attacking people they don't know did anything wrong (2) making sure innocent bystanders get hurt and (3) inciting the bad eggs to riot. Don't tell me that innocent fans who just came to watch the game are assuming the risk because some idiot throws a beer on a player who decides to go hulk.


You still disregard the question, why do fans have full beers at the end of the game?? MLB and the NFL know to cut off sales just in case people get to drunk and do stupid things, much like these idiot fans did. It was not a few bad apples, otherwise why would chairs and beer be flying in on to the court from all over the place. Where was the security?? why were they not bouncing people all over the place?? You make it seem like it was just one or two fans, you had fans running on to the court. Fans tried to stop Artest which is ok before he beats someone up, but then other fans punch him from behind and while being held some random guy throws a beer in his face. The fans need not throw the beer in the first place, they were running wild if they cannot restrain themselves from acting like morons. Security needs to be all over that situation before it happens, there are a lot of people at fault before blame can be assed to Artest. Once you give full disclosure about that then you can say Artest was wrong (i agree he was but i understand why he went up and will never hold it against him, nor Jackson for punching they guy who threw the beer in artest face while being held by other fans).

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 09:41 PM
And another question, how many beers can be throw at them? how many acts of violence can be taken against them before they are allowed to fight back? how much should they take before they are allowed to defend themselves?


Tim Legler with decent communtary about the situation...
ESPN ARTICLE (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1927415)


Saturday, November 20, 2004


By Tim Legler
ESPN Insider

I was in a state of shock as I watched this horrific altercation unfold as I sat in the NBA Shootaround studio. I can honestly say I've never seen anything of this magnitude in basketball.


Initially, I didn't understand why this turned into the spectacle that it turned into until I saw the numerous replays. Though I can't justify or defend the actions of the Pacers, I can put myself into the mind-sets of Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, Fred Jones and Jermaine O'Neal.


I understand what they were going through after an emotional on-court fight. These players were already emotionally charged and then they were faced with the indefensible actions of the fans. Their involvement proved to be the X factor that caused the incident to escalate.


This all started with Ben Wallace's overreaction to Artest's hard foul of him. Wallace wasn't reacting to the foul but rather to the fact that the Pacers were beating him up all game and Artest had the nerve to foul him with less than a minute remaining. They were more physical and had taken the game right to him and he reacted by shoving Artest in the face.


Artest reacted to that shove to the face exactly the way you'd want a player to -- he walked away and didn't respond. But he's a lightning rod for the Pistons because he's had a number of flagrant fouls in the past and was involved in a flagrant foul with the Pistons during last season's playoffs when he elbowed Richard Hamilton in the face. So it's never easy when Artest is involved.


That said, players overreacting is something that happens all the time. It's not a surprise to see players get heated and respond wrongly and badly to a situation. What was surprising was the fans' involvement in the situation. Usually the players, coaches and referees are able to sort out and deal with the situation. Tonight was different because the fans crossed the line and the players entered the stands.


A fan made himself part of the altercation and that's when it got ugly. Once again, I'm not defending the players' actions: Going into the stands is a mistake. In the end, I feel sorry for the children who were at the game and had to witness this unfortunate situation, and I'm sorry for the children who will watch this terrible incident on the news and will be afraid to go to a sporting venue in the future. I know if my daughter saw this or was close to the situation she'd be terrified and would be scared to go to another sporting event.


There's no doubt that hefty suspensions will come down for this horrible incident. Wallace is going to get at least two games for the initial shove and Artest is going to get some games for going into the stands and grabbing a fan. But Jackson is probably going to get the biggest suspension because he threw the first punch in the stands at a fan, which triggered the aftermath of the initial altercation.


The suspensions will no doubt be weighted because fans were involved, but I believe that shouldn't be an aggravating factor. When fans get involved, they get what they deserve.


Artest will probably receive the brunt of the media condemnation from this situation because he's a lightning rod for controversy. Whatever his responsibility in the incident, it will be overblown because of last week's controversy.


This fight obviously will take the Pacers-Pistons rivalry to the next level. And neither team will truly miss its suspended players because they are both built for April, May and June and will see each other in the Eastern Conference finals.

Chicat
11-20-2004, 09:44 PM
Security needs to be all over that situation before it happens

But before it happened (and by "it" I mean before the fight broke out on the court) there wasn't a problem in the stands from what I've heard. It wasn't like the Francisco chair throwing situation where the fans had been rowdy all game. This was a fight on the court that spilled into the stands. That is a situation that security is going to have a hard time nipping in the bud, unless there was a one-to-one fan to security ratio and the security firm was "We Read Those Crazy A$$holes' Minds Security Company Inc."

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 09:50 PM
But before it happened (and by "it" I mean before the fight broke out on the court) there wasn't a problem in the stands from what I've heard. It wasn't like the Francisco chair throwing situation where the fans had been rowdy all game. This was a fight on the court that spilled into the stands. That is a situation that security is going to have a hard time nipping in the bud, unless there was a one-to-one fan to security ratio and the security firm was "We Read Those Crazy A$$holes' Minds Security Company Inc."


There has to be more security obviously down by the court, and there was not at all. Great discussion on ESPN Motion by a writer for the Detriot free press.

Motion this (http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/motion/showcase/index?videos=1927624)

As you have written there was an incident in the court, the fans for some reason brought themselves into the situation.

muffley
11-20-2004, 09:52 PM
And another question, how many beers can be throw at them? how many acts of violence can be taken against them before they are allowed to fight back? how much should they take before they are allowed to defend themselves?


Again, having a beer poured on you puts you in harms way? Is it self defense or is it revenge to go into the stands?

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 09:55 PM
Again, having a beer poured on you puts you in harms way? Is it self defense or is it revenge to go into the stands?


getting one thrown at you is diffrent then having one poured on you, let me throw a beer at you, then poor one at you, i am sure you will be able to tell the diffrence. There is slim line when discussing the diffrence between self defense and revenge. How long is to long for an incident to no longer be self defense and be considered revenge? When can you fight back and have it still be seen as self defense and not revenge?

muffley
11-20-2004, 10:00 PM
getting one thrown at you is diffrent then having one poured on you, let me throw a beer at you, then poor one at you, i am sure you will be able to tell the diffrence. There is slim line when discussing the diffrence between self defense and revenge. How long is to long for an incident to no longer be self defense and be considered revenge? When can you fight back and have it still be seen as self defense and not revenge?

OK, it was thrown at Artest, not poured, my bad. Did it hurt? Probably not. Was he in danger of receiving enough beer cups that would put him in the hospital? Probably not. Was he pissed? Certainly! Was he concerned about protecting himself from harm? No. Did he want to get back at the guy who threw the beer on him? No doubt. Did he go after the right person? No way, unless he was a 2 fisted drinker.

He was pissed that someone threw beer at him. And he wanted to beat the sh1t out of that guy. I think we can all agree on that.

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 10:01 PM
Please . . . Legler was Idiot #1 in the panel of idiots commenting on the situation for ESPN. You could expect the same drivel in his (probably ghost written) article.

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 10:06 PM
-watches video again-

The first person that artest goes after is waving one hand and cheering the beer throwing incident, go watch it for yourself he has glasses and black shirt, he as beer in his left hand only ONE. Then while being held artest is blasted with another one by some other idiot, watch it and tell me what hurt and did not for another individual, it did enough to send him off the edge, watch the video again and make the defense for your case that he was holding two beers when in fact he was not, espn motion gives a perfectly good angle at the guy. Go check it out, because i just did.

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 10:07 PM
Please . . . Legler was Idiot #1 in the panel of idiots commenting on the situation for ESPN. You could expect the same drivel in his (probably ghost written) article.


He played in the L, hate him or not, his perspective is true from a certain PLAYERS experience, and tell me where he is wrong in the article.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 10:09 PM
Yes he is holding one. Thus unless he was double fisting, he was not the culprit. Artest attacked the wrong guy-the guy that threw the bear was the one in the hat that punched him from behind and tried to break it up

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 10:10 PM
If things are being thrown AT you, than it is generally reguarded as assault.

They weren't necessarily just being POURED onto the players, but were bing hurled at them. Coach and refs got hit, some have open cuts from the partially or fully filled plastic bottles. The cups thrown prolly didn't harm the body as much as it hurt the pride, the the fact still remains that they were thrown at the players.

My opinion is that ALL players involved deserve to be prosecuted and suspended by the League. Jackson more so than others, but O'Neal and Artest can't be allowed to assault fans in return without punishment.

When the fans stormed the court that's an entirely different affair. they are the one's intruding and challenging the players. If the appear to be threatoning, then the players have the right to defend themselves...Artest's was justified, O'Neal's not so much...

In review...
1. Players fighting with each other on the court...Forgivable
2. Players fighting with the fans in the stands...inexcusable
3. Players fighting with fans on the court...understandable

All three will carry a consiquense, with 3 outweighing 1 and 2 outweighing all...

Ziggiles
11-20-2004, 10:12 PM
If things are being thrown AT you, than it is generally reguarded as assault.

They weren't necessarily just being POURED onto the players, but were bing hurled at them. Coach and refs got hit, some have open cuts from the partially or fully filled plastic bottles. The cups thrown prolly didn't harm the body as much as it hurt the pride, the the fact still remains that they were thrown at the players.

Mu opinion is that ALL players involved deserve to be prosecuted and suspended by the League. Jackson more so than others, but O'Neal and Artest can't be allowed to assault fans in return without punishment.

When the fans stormed the court that's an entirely different affair. they are the one's intruding and challenging the players. If the appear to be threatoning, then the players have the right to defend themselves...Artest's was justified, O'Neal's not so much...

In review...
1. Players fighting with each other on the court...Forgivable
2. Players fighting with the fans in the stands...inexcusable
3. Players fighting with fans on the court...understandable

All three will carry a consiquense, with 3 outweighing 1 and 2 outweighing all...


Excellent post, if i could rep you again i would.

catgrad97
11-20-2004, 10:22 PM
-watches video again-

The first person that artest goes after is waving one hand and cheering the beer throwing incident, go watch it for yourself he has glasses and black shirt, he as beer in his left hand only ONE. Then while being held artest is blasted with another one by some other idiot, watch it and tell me what hurt and did not for another individual, it did enough to send him off the edge, watch the video again and make the defense for your case that he was holding two beers when in fact he was not, espn motion gives a perfectly good angle at the guy. Go check it out, because i just did.

And I hope JMark's post can end this debate, because it's ridiculous that people are breaking this video down like it was the Zapruder film.

"I know what you're thinking...did I throw two beers or only one? Well, tell you the truth I've kind of lost track myself in all the excitement...." :p

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 10:24 PM
He played in the L, hate him or not, his perspective is true from a certain PLAYERS experience, and tell me where he is wrong in the article.

Artest will probably receive the brunt of the media condemnation from this situation because he's a lightning rod for controversy. Whatever his responsibility in the incident, it will be overblown because of last week's controversy.

No . . . he will receive the brunt of criticism because what he did (while somewhat understandable) is utterly indefensible. What happens if he doesn't charge up into the stands and start wailing on an innocent bystander and trampling grandma in the process? He's dripping wet, pissed as hell, the crowd is mortified, security officers grab the guy who throws the beer and the situation is over. The fan is prosecuted to the fullest extent possible and refused admission to another game in perpetuity. Artest comes off as a saint and his image is instantaneously rehabilitated. Oh well . . .

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 10:29 PM
BJBJ, well said...if only...

LegallyKenny
11-20-2004, 10:39 PM
Doesn't matter if the person who threw the beer committed an assualt or not. Artest does not have the legal right to respond with force if he does not reasonably percieve himself to be in danger.

From the American Law Institute's Model Penal Code (which is entirely adopted by several states, and the basis of the criminal law in many others):
Section 3.04 Use of Force in Self-Protection
(1) Use of Force Justifiable for Protection of the Person. Subject to the provisions of the Section and Section 3.09, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROTECTING HIMSELF against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

ByJoveByJingle
11-21-2004, 01:13 AM
Sportscenter just covered it pretty extensively. The upshot:


--County Prosecutor says charges will be filed
--O'neal was witnessed by a police officer off-camera "cold-cocking" a bystander (in addition to the cold-cocking seen on camera)
--Roger Cossack (ESPN legal analyst) claimed (as Kenny and others have) that Artest will not be protected in court by any "defense" claim
--Civil suits will be filed (as if we didn't all know that already)
--Jim Gray spoke to Artest who spent the day in bed . . . his neck is sore, has a knot on the back of his head, and he hurt his hand

GlobalCat
11-21-2004, 01:15 AM
You know, to me, it never looked like beers were being thrown. If so, it sure looked like a lot of ICE was in that beer. I am sure some beers were thrown, but that is NOT the cause of this incident. If you watch the videos (all angles) you'll see a lot more sodas than beers being poured on players.

Trying to blame this on alcohol is not the reason why this happened.

PointGuardU03
11-21-2004, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Global Cat
Trying to blame this on alcohol is not the reason why this happened.
You're right it wasn't alcohol, it was moronic Detroit fans. I'm not trying to take away the blame from the players involved, but is any city more unworthy of sports team then Detroit. Even Atlanta deserves teams over them, at least there 9 fans aren't riot prone(prolly b/c they've never won anything, but still). Someone needs to go over to the MLB form and raise the "Frank Fransico is a smart man" thread. Just to see if anyone has changed their stance on player-fan altercations. cough, zonacat, cough.

HiCat
11-21-2004, 11:38 AM
Artest ought to be out for the rest of the year. The league needs to demonstrate that the fans can be protected from players like him. His history has caught up with him.

Fans who go on the court should be tossed and precluded from coming back. (how that would be enforced I don't know).

Why is Wallace suspended?

JMarkJohns
11-21-2004, 12:40 PM
I'm going to disagree about Artest being gone for the remainder of the year, but I'm not going to rehash what's already been said about fifty times...

Wallace was suspended because of his overreation to Artest's foul. After the play was stopped, Wallace calmly approached Artest, then without warning struck artest in the neck/head region, pushing him backwards with the blow...it's how the WHOLE GD thing started. If Wallace doesn't overreact, then there is no fight on the floor. If there is no fight on the floor, Artest wouldn't have been lying on the scorers table. If no scorers table, then no fan throwing beer and so on and so on...

Five games sounds right since the NBA mandates that any blow to the neck/head region is an automatic suspension.

HiCat
11-21-2004, 12:44 PM
Wallace seems ok with it too. He's a good guy or so it seems. Not a hot head. Would have been better if both limited their fight to each other. But it is what it is..

This has great entertainment value.

JMarkJohns
11-21-2004, 01:01 PM
Ironically enough, The fan/player violence occured in large part, because Artest did the right thing and didn't fight Wallace. Had he, then they would likely both be facing a 5-game suspension.

It was pretty stupid to lie on the scorers table...I'm not exactly sure why he thought to do that, but then, this is Artest I'm talking about...

HiCat
11-21-2004, 01:06 PM
Artest might have been trying to "chill" out, my guess anyway. But the beer/ ice cup ended that..ha..

Officer Craig
11-21-2004, 04:23 PM
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

1. Holy sh1t that was great.

2. Reason #1 to let the NBA not to drug test and thugs smoke their weed and mellow out.

3. First the VIBE awards now this. Love to see how Jesse Jackson, etc. spin this.

4. :rolleyes:

Zona Dave
11-22-2004, 01:32 PM
I thought there was only 1 "Funny" part in the incident. It was right at the beginning, when Artest gets up from the scorers table and climbs into the stands. The guy that apparently threw the beer is talking trash (with his 2 buddies in front of him). When they move (due to the raging lunatic known as Ronald Artest) he goes from talking trash to OOoooohhhh CRAP!!! It's a classic moment, in a nasty scene.. Can anyone post a pic?

Officer Craig
11-22-2004, 01:49 PM
Agreed on that was the funniest moment in a lot of great moments that went on.

Also, the fat, bald, Wallace jersey guy holding artest back for awhile and then just deciding to throw some fat knuckles on his ear.

Also, the asst. coach in the brown suit, after Artest knocks down that tool in the pistons jersey, jumping on him and throwing more blows. Ghetto.

Also, just like the Vibe awards, love it when a chair comes flying in out of nowhere.

Hmm, i am sure there are more.

And by the way, what a GREAT shot with a full beer!!

budd1e_lee
11-22-2004, 03:37 PM
BY FAR the funniest moment was Jamaal Tinsley coming back out of the tunnel WAVING A DUST PAN!!!! Ive seen it soo many times and this part makes me laugh everytime. That and Bill Walton... Bill Walton said, "This is the lowest point for me in 30 years with the NBA." Mine was when Bill Walton made the 50 Greatest Players list and Dominique Wilkins didn't.(comment from slamonline.com/links)

http://www.slamonline.com/links/jopunch.gif