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View Full Version : Who was at fault in the NBA Brawl?


azhoops
11-20-2004, 04:17 AM
Pick one.

argaen
11-20-2004, 04:29 AM
Ron Artest and the pacers. Fans are always going to be rowdy. You just can't run and attack them, regardless. Just leave the court. You can't attack your customers; it just does not work that way.

Everyone of the Pacers who hit a fan deserve to be out for the rest of the season. Any player who even went up into the stands deserves a lengthy suspension.

azhoops
11-20-2004, 04:31 AM
Artest

Class of 1990
11-20-2004, 04:44 AM
It's kinda funny, Artest may get that month off and maybe more he asked for last week. Though without pay.

Thug for life Artest.

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 04:52 AM
you are all sooo quick to blame artest, and I think alot of it is because he is Ron Artest.... If the fans dont throw things at him he doesnt move from the scorers table, end of story... this was THE most disgraceful display of "fans" Ive ever seen in my life. Larry Brown even questioned his team as to why more of them werent in the stand protecting their peers....

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:53 AM
You've got a job waiting for you on air at ESPN!

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 05:03 AM
You've got a job waiting for you on air at ESPN!

to be quite honest I hate ESPN, and think most of the people they have on air are incompetent. however they had quotes from several current players, including the MDE, saying they would have done the same as Artest as well as JO and SJ to defend their teamates...

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 05:06 AM
In all honesty if the fans dont do anything nothing happens. Thus the fans are at fault the most

budd1e_lee
11-20-2004, 05:10 AM
In all honesty if the fans dont do anything nothing happens. Thus the fans are at fault the most

exactly...

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 05:54 AM
It is so rediculous...this whole thing sickens me. I've seen the endited/uncencored version three times now and I'm appalled.


First, the foul by Artest wasn't anything to get so upset about. I understand the play is heated and the Pistons were down big at the time, but they needn't take things so personal. It was a hard foul, but no where near a flagrant, therefore the reaction by Wallace was unnecessary.

Second, If you watch the replays on ESPN, Stephen Jackson is the one who was essentially challenging the Piston's players before thing really broke out. He was clenching his fists and raising in a challenging mode, enough so that several Piston's players almost took him up on it.

Third, Artest was literally laying down on the scorers desk with his eyes closed and head some headphones on (I guess a subtle promo for his Disc...), but was doing nothing wrong when we was stuck by the full glass of beer.

Fouth, his reaction is justified...any person in the same position would have done the same thing. At that point, the player/fan relationship became nonexistant with the viewer (fanatic) becoming the initiator and Artest the recipiant of the assault.

Fifth, Jackson again lets his emotion's get the best of him and runs to the aid of Jackson, seemingly assaulting everyone in his way.

Sixth, fans storming the court have NO rights as a fan. If they appear threatoning, the player has every right in the name of self-defense to protect and/or rid himself of the problem, therefore Artest and O'Neal (to a much lesser extent) cannot be touched for these actions. A fan that runs on the court and challenges a emotionally charged giant deserves whatever happens to him.

Seventh, the fans bombard the court and Indiana players with cups, beer, clothes and even a chair was thrown...this is 100% inacceptable. They not only riled the players on and off the court, but kept things going by doing so.

Finally, security has to force the players out or to the middle of the court and then clear house. They failed to do their only job in a promt fashion and are largely responsible for the boiling over of the players and fans...


In closing, I detemine...
Wallace to be guilty of overreating
Jackson to be guilty of getting emotions riled
The Fan to be guilty for instigating the Fan/Player violence
Jackson to be guilty of further causing emotions to boil over
Fans to be guilty of inexcusable judgement
Security to be guilty of a lax handle on the situation

I determine, of the players involved, Stephen Jackson to be most responsible.
I determine, of the fans involved, The Fan to be most responsible.
I determine, of all the factors, the security to have the least responsibilty.

Of these three, Jackson prolly bears the largest amount of blame, since it was his moronic behavior that kept the original tussle going long enough for other situations to arise. It was his flailing about in the crowd that really caused the most commotion amongst the fans, as Artest and The Fan were subdued and he ws still swinging away at anything coming towards him.

The Fans then bare the next, with a large portion of the last scenes. There is no excuse for what they did, both to start and continue the riot.


Therefore...
I determine, Wallace's overreation understandable as it was Artest that fouled him rather hard and it was in the heat of a game.
I determine, Artest to be a victom of a felony (assault), therefore justified in his reaction to said fans...
I determine, O'Neal to be a willing participant, but only of defending his teammate first and then himself aft'wards.


The whole thing is quite literally a defining moment for all of sports. I've never seen anything quite like this before and hope to never see it again.

I'm at a loss.

WisconsinCAT
11-20-2004, 09:26 AM
The great sports fans of Detriot. They are the worst fans in America. Any fan that threw and object, punch, or came on to the court deserved what they got. If this had been a different player, i.e. Garrnet, Kobe, LeBron, or any ex Wildcat you would not be blaming the player. If you really think about it, the culture that we live in really is to blame. But the Piston fans should be embrassed. Worst fans in all of sports.

mongrelcat
11-20-2004, 02:23 PM
I refuse to vote in that poll....there is plenty of blame to be spread around.

Artest commited an unecessary foul
Wallace overreacted.
Fans were in the wrong throwing beer
artest overreacted to that

muffley
11-20-2004, 02:34 PM
Sixth, fans storming the court have NO rights as a fan. If they appear threatoning, the player has every right in the name of self-defense to protect and/or rid himself of the problem, therefore Artest and O'Neal (to a much lesser extent) cannot be touched for these actions. A fan that runs on the court and challenges a emotionally charged giant deserves whatever happens to him.


The guy was certainly wrong in going to the court, but unlike the news articles coming out, I didn't see his arms raised. World class athlete Ron Artest may have been threatened by a short pudgy white dude with one hand holding a towel or jersey, and punched him, but what was O'Neil doing sucker punching him as he was being helped up?

I voted Artest, so what he got soaked with beer. Doesn't it make him more of a man to get up just walk away? Doesn't that take more strength? I do agree that Artest was doing no wrong, and actually was looking like a p u s s y after running away from Wallace. Probably a smart move, Big Ben was pissed. Maybe going after the fan was an overreaction to him getting embarrassed by Wallace, and tried to make up for it. Getting dissed once is bad enough.

I just hate the ghetto thug mentality of the NBA.

GlobalCat
11-20-2004, 02:45 PM
I am so grateful Jackson never played at UofA. What a POS. The ever time I see that, all I think is what a Thug.

Jermaine O'Neal's hit on that fan who was on the court is exactly what that dude deserved.

muffley
11-20-2004, 02:53 PM
you are all sooo quick to blame artest,

I don't think it's the person. If Shaun Bradley would have done that it would still be the same. As much as I dislike Bradley, he is not a ghetto thug.

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 02:57 PM
When a fan comes onto the court, that itself is an arrestable offense.

I understand what you're saying. Artest wasn't necessarily "Challenged" but there were two drunken Pistons fans, invading Artest's safe-haven (the court). Words were exchanged and Artest punched them...fact is, the one guy that J. O'Neal punched was still yelling in Artest's direction. If the guy was using racial slurs or what not, than the fact that he went where he wasn't supposed to, willing fought with Artest and some coaches and was still screaming at the players, then he deserves whatever happened.

If some drunken bum breaks into your house (the court), challenges you verbally and then is a willing participant in a fight, you're going to do whatever it takes to protect your family (the pacers teammates)...

I'm not saying give Artest and O'Neal a pass...far from it. Only that the circumstances need to be taken into account. Artest didn't start either of the fights (w/ Wallace or the fans) and O'Neal was simply protecting his teammates...it's a fight, therefore things are already heated and one never knows what the hell is going to happen next.

I say Artest gets a large fine and a 5-game suspension, O'Neal gets a large fine and a 4-game, Jackson gets a large fine and a 8-game suspension and Wallace gets a 3-game for his attack on Artest (hands to the nack/face)...

That seems fair to me considering the Pacers were the recipiants of the initial assaults (Wallace/The Fan/other fans)...

Chicat
11-20-2004, 03:03 PM
Where is "All of the Above"?

muffley
11-20-2004, 03:04 PM
True JmJ, if the on court fan used racial epithets against O'Neal, he deserved it, although not legally. We don't know what was said, at least I couldn't hear anything.

I think all the unruly fans should lose their season tickets and be banned for life.

I don't think 5 games is enough for Artest. He wanted that much time anyway, Sterns should come out with a blanket rule saying leaving the court and going into the stands is automatically a XX day suspension. Let security handle the crowd. They failed in Detroit, but I am pretty sure it won't happen again soon there. An amount equal to Rasheed's salary for the day would take care of doubling security for the year.

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:06 PM
If I had to guess I'd say 3 for Wallace, 10 for Artest, 15 for Jackson and then little ones.

muffley
11-20-2004, 03:13 PM
Ray Rotto: Blame the game!


By Ray Ratto
Special to ESPN.com

Never mind all the apologies and acts of contrition you will hear over the next few days in the wake of Friday's Pacers-Pistons riot. They'll all be lies, every one of them.


The fact is, every person involved in the horrendous brawl at The Palace at Auburn Hills is secretly proud of himself for not taking any stuff from Ron Artest clocking the one fan in a Pistons jersey, to the louts who drenched Jermaine O'Neal on his way off the floor with every liquid item from the concession stands.



Stephen Jackson (with yellow armband) was in the scuffle, along with Pacers teammate Fred Jones and the Pistons' Rasheed Wallace (36).


They're all telling their friends what great people they are, and how many valuable lessons they imparted to all those other stupid people, whoever they might be. They all think this was a rite of passage, a test of manhood, and they all think they passed with flying colors.


They are going to spend the next few days defending themselves for their behavior, and delegating blame left and right, everywhere but themselves.


It's the players. No, it's the fans. No, it's lax security. And the one unifying theme is, "Hey, it wasn't me. I was just defending myself."


And all of it is nonsense. Nothing's going to happen, not until someone gets shot, or stabbed, or crippled.


Yes, we will all wring our hands and decry the looming end of civility in sports, but let us remind you that when Texas Rangers pitcher Frank Francisco threw a chair into the stands in Oakland, his suspension was brief and potential felony charges were not filed.


And the same will happen here. Everyone will talk a good game, but in the end, the only thing the players, the league office, the Detroit management and the town in general will want is for it all to go away, and hope people will forget.


Which, of course, they will. This makes for swell television, and fabulous round-table discussions, but in the end, it is an embarrassment that will be handled like most embarrassing situations with as little talking and as much sleight of hand as needed to get people on to the next topic.


What ought to happen is simple, and comprehensive. The Pacers involved get real suspensions long, staggered and without pay. The Pistons get fined several million dollars for their security lapses, even though this was your basic unforeseeable situation. The teams play their next game in an empty arena, while paying all arena personnel as though they had worked that day, and then make sizable contributions to anti-violence charitable groups in their towns. And the fans involved are identified, found, stripped of their season tickets (if applicable) and charged with as much as the law will allow.


Now guess how many of those will happen.


Or better yet, let us answer that for you. Almost none of them.


And while you're at it, guess which two other things won't happen.


Beer sales will not be curtailed because the markup for beer is one of the great arena cash cows of all time. Beer at an arena has been elevated to a God-given right, and given that fans will cheerfully pay up to $12 for a bottle of imported, that's a God the league and its members recognize and worship devoutly.


And the other is those courtside seats. They all seemed to bother the fellows on the NBA Shootaround studio so much, and yet, they aren't going anywhere either. They may be bolted down now, but like the beer, they generate way too much money from way too many high rollers to do anything but stay right where they are.


Over the next few days, you will hear outrage, and disgust, and demands for retribution. Hey, they serve their purpose because they let everyone position themselves as victims and moralists. It's good anaerobic exercise, and everyone comes away feeling better for the experience.


But don't buy the apologies, and don't buy the vows of punishment, or remedies. This, too, will pass because too many people want it to pass.


And when nobody's looking, the Pacers and the fans will all be very proud of themselves for standing up to each other, for eagerly crossing the line that should never be crossed.


Some day, though, someone will end up dead at courtside, or rinkside, or the sideline, or in the tunnel, and then we'll all wonder how it could have come to such a horrible end.


And we'll remember this night, and how the worst riot in recent NBA history was "someone else's fault."

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 03:15 PM
Jackson definately deserves the most...he was just insane.

Artest on the other hand, was in fact the victom, twice.

If the League suspends him for more than 6 games it's a shame...I don't like the cat, but he did the right thing after being assaulted once, then snapped after it happened again.

Who the hell knows...the whole GD thing is a blackeye and low-blow...

Chicat
11-20-2004, 03:18 PM
Love the new avatar JMark. It echoes my feelings completely . . .

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 03:43 PM
It pains me as I've loved the League since watching Bird/Magic/Thomas from the mid-to-late 80's and on...There are just no words to describe.

I should be bantering about the most incredable game I've seen in years (Lakers vs. Suns), but am instead deadened...

Chicat
11-20-2004, 03:48 PM
This might be an ugly season for the NBA, with the Lake Show breaking up, Ron Artest illustrating the problem of players that just don't seem to care about the game with his taking time off to promote his album talk, and the whispers we are already hearing about a possible lockout.

It all makes me like the NBA even less, and I didn't like it much to begin with . . .

Jason Scheer
11-20-2004, 03:50 PM
Personally I cant stand it. I am a huge sports fan but don't care for the NBA in the slightest. It has nothing to do with the image but the quality just stinks. It's all on-on-one and just bores me

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 04:00 PM
I agree Chi...

Though I'll go ahead and wonder aloud...

Why are the players involved being held to such high standards? Aren't they simply humans? Don't they allow emotions to get the best of them sometimes? I know If I'm physically accosted, I'm going to go down fighting...I always have. If you've ever played basketball and the game is tight or emotionally charged, then you should no that the smallest thing is enough to set a player off (Artest foul on Wallace)...

So when fans overstep the boundry and are no longer just hecklers, but are actually physically involved, whether it's throwing stuff or fighting, then I see them as being just as guilty, if not more so ('specially in this case)...

I have no qualms over what Artest did. He was assaulted and snapped. The fact that the guy who supposedly threw the beer was white, makes me wonder the dialogue involved...So if you are assaulted for no real reason and are called racial slurs, what would you do...at that point, you'd likely become just another emotionally charged human and he'd become the object of your wrath...NO FAN, NO PLAYER..just the assaulted and the assaultee...If Artest had instigated the fight, then he's gone for at least 10-15 games, but he didn't, therefore should be treated as the victom.

Oh well, I'm done here.

Chicat
11-20-2004, 04:27 PM
I think one of the problems is that you have a league that actively cultivates the thug image, which is a far cry from what they were trying to market in the 80's and 90's. Then you have a fan base that cannot have any kind of connection to the game without spending half of their paycheck. You have to think that these people who buy season tickets right down near the court are paying so much, not only for the tickets, but for parking, concessions, memorobilia, etc., that they feel some kind of ownership and entitlement. I could very well imagine that if I dropped that much money on what at many times is a very boring game, I would feel like I was owed something for my hard earned money. I think that is where a lot of this kind of behavior stems from. Also in our society we have taken personal ownership of sports. No longer is it "the team", instead it is "our team" or "my team" or worse, "us". When you see how much money these people are making, and how much you yourself pay to have a piece of their product, all of a sudden it is no longer something that you can easily distance yourself from. I really am coming to believe that sports in general, and the NBA, NHL, NFL, and MLB in particular, is starting to suffer from it's own success and popularity. It's unfortunate, to be sure . . .

ByJoveByJingle
11-20-2004, 04:45 PM
I determine, Artest to be a victom of a felony (assault), therefore justified in his reaction to said fans...

I'm marginally sympathetic to the notion that (some) of the players reactions were understandable. But in this life, you bear responsibility for your actions. If you want to respond to provocation, then be prepared to bear responsibility for it. I think you will be hard put to find a charge filed on felony assault for throwing a beverage and a plastic cup at someone, therefore, he is not legally justifiable in his actions and should be going to jail. I don't care what his suspension is by the League . . . I want to see him do jail time. He assaulted a man who didn't throw the beer cup at him, an old lady was left lying bleeding on the ground and he should pay the consequences for it.

JMarkJohns
11-20-2004, 06:04 PM
That's fair enough as my posts were mostly in reguards to the NBA's actions to the fights.

AZCatFANatic
11-20-2004, 09:50 PM
How about...ALL OF THE ABOVE.
It was bad all the way around and all were responsible. Sad day for the NBA. This will be talked about and reviewed for some time to come.