How Julian Wright ended up at KU...

[jAZ]

There's a lot more here, but the part people here would care most about is posted below.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/12564331.htm

Julian Wright

Wright, a forward from Chicago, wouldn’t pick up the phone. Week after week, Bill Self left messages, but his calls were never returned. Wright was mad.

And Self knew why

Shortly after Kansas’ 2003-04 season ended, Self underwent stomach surgery that kept him out of pocket for weeks. Even when he returned to work, Self had been told by his doctors to take it easy.

Self had assigned former assistant Norm Roberts to be the lead recruiter on Wright, but things fell through when Roberts left for St. John’s after the season.

Feeling that KU had fallen too far behind to make a serious run at Wright, Self channeled his efforts elsewhere. He said he felt healthy enough to visit four players during the spring: Chalmers, Downs, Dallas guard C.J. Miles and Poplar Bluff, Mo., forward Tyler Hansbrough.

“Julian didn’t get the attention from us that he deserved,” Self said. “When we didn’t go up there in the spring to see a young man who was a top-10 player in America that everyone was trying to recruit, he eliminated us from his list.”

Even though he figured KU was out of the running, Self continued to leave once-a-week messages on Wright’s answering machine — just in case. He also had occasional conversations with Wright’s mother, Gina, who at one point told Self: “You’re out. He has no interest at all.”

“All I could do was keep leaving those messages,” Self said. “I’d just say, ‘Hey, you’re going to have to come to the phone to tell me no, bud. I’m not going to take no for an answer until you tell me no.’ ”

On Aug. 20, Wright’s mother called Self and asked whether he’d like to visit Julian in their home on Sept. 9. After visiting Arizona and Illinois, Wright still couldn’t decide on a school, so he figured he’d give Kansas a chance.

Self said he vividly remembers his conversation with Wright, who had never visited Lawrence.

“(Assistant) Kurtis Townsend and I were there 2 1/2 hours,” Self said. “The thing that amazed me was how open and honest he was. He let us know why he’d eliminated us and why he was letting us back in.

“At point I was talking and he just said, ‘Stop it! I’ve heard enough!’ Kurtis and I figured it was all over. But then he said he wanted to visit. I was shocked.”

But Self wasn’t nearly as shocked as he was moments later, when Wright called him on his way to the airport and summoned him back to his home.

“We went back, and he actually committed right then and there,” Self said.

No one argues that the 6-8 Wright is the most versatile player in the Class of 2005. He has the ability to play literally anywhere on the floor. A mediocre shooter, Wright isn’t known for his scoring. But he has the ball-handling and passing skills of a point guard — Self may actually use him to back up Chalmers — and, when playing in the paint, Wright is tenacious on the boards.

“He’s a positionless player,” Self said of Wright, who has drawn comparisons to Magic Johnson.

Wright’s sudden commitment sent shockwaves through college basketball circles. It also altered KU’s recruiting efforts.

C.J. Miles, the Texas guard who was leaning toward KU, was upset that Self had added Wright. He eventually committed to Texas before entering the NBA draft, where he was selected by Utah in the second round. Dallas forward Kevin Rogers, Miles’ AAU teammate and close friend, suddenly got dropped by Kansas and ended up signing with Baylor.

With the twosome out of the mix because of Wright, the Jayhawks still had one more scholarship. But Self gave it to walk-on Christian Moody.

Nearly a year went by, and everything seemed complete. Even when Alex Galindo transferred and Moulaye Niang retired because of back problems, Self didn’t anticipate using their scholarships on a player from the ’05 class.

Then again, he never thought Brandon Rush would be interested in Kansas.

[TheOriginalAZ]

This article left out how much money Self paid Wright.

[Hinrichfor3]

This article left out how much money Self paid Wright.

Get over it, just because you lost doesn't mean you have to resort to this crud. Were you there? No. Do you know Wright or Self? No.

So simply put shut your mouth, your such a sore loser it's not even funny, you lost o well it's not the end of the world for you to be making false statements.

[Idolman]

I don't think anyone is crying over the fact that wright went to KU over UA. With the guys we have, and the guys we have coming in, its easy to forget. I think we just enjoy making fun of Self and his "Sketchy" at best recruiting tactics

[Hinrichfor3]

You do realize Wright is rated the 2nd best recruit to go to college behind Josh McRoberts right? #8 overall.....sure you forgot.

nah I'm just teasing you did get a pretty good player in JP Prince...=)

[NorCalCat]

I hear Kurti$ Town$end is an excellent recruiter.

Does the NCAA still have the "Death Penalty"?

[JMarkJohns]

In a system based more on potential than immediate impact.

He won't scratch the surface at KU. He's too raw offensively for much more than transition, dump-offs and put-backs. He doesn't rebound well accoring to what I've seen and other reports and he gambles on defense.

Until he learns structure, he'll be a wildly entertaining player with NBA potential, not an NBA calibur player playing for Kansas.

He'll be good, but just good enough to show off his skills and make the leap.

Honestly, I don't think Self is the college coach to get the most out of him.

[Hinrichfor3]

Honestly, I don't think Self is the college coach to get the most out of him.

Are you serious? That is not a fair statement my man, Brian Cook? Self has not been anywhere long enough to show what he can do, and I will just leave it at that. So what Lute is the coach to show him how to play? Andre Igoudala ring a bell? Well when he was drafted he still couldn't shoot, so much for Lute helping him out.

[WayneNewton]

Get over it, just because you lost doesn't mean you have to resort to this crud. Were you there? No. Do you know Wright or Self? No.

Were you there, Heiniefor3?

Do you know Wright or Self?

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not defending every Arizona player, nor the coaching they received.

I'm saying that Self is a great recruiter and a poor coach. Would you care to refute any of this? If Brian Cook is your best argument, you'll lose.

Just take a look at last season. With top-notch senior players, a a lottory-talent wing in Giddens and a very good freshman class, they completely bombed. No player got better and Giddens got worse. He's never done much with his players. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If he couldn't make a few youngsters fit into a talented and experienced core, then how's he going to get a team of freshmen and sophomores to maximize their talent?

[ByJoveByJingle]

Are you serious? That is not a fair statement my man, Brian Cook? Self has not been anywhere long enough to show what he can do, and I will just leave it at that. So what Lute is the coach to show him how to play? Andre Igoudala ring a bell? Well when he was drafted he still couldn't shoot, so much for Lute helping him out.


Oh that's rich! :roll:

Oh how I long for the days of yore when the KU posters were slightly more cerebral, if equally defensive. :p :)

[hotishmmm825]

That is not a fair statement my man, Brian Cook?
:roll: :roll: :roll:

This dude is trying to argue that Self can progress players and he uses Brian Cook. :roll: That guy was supposed to blossom into a star after his sophomore year and that never happened. Igoudala can't shoot but out of high school he was not even close to a lottery pick. He has Olson and the AZ program to thank for his millions now.

[Ben Hansen]

Arizona wanted Ju as badly as any recruit in the time I've covered this program.

In fact, I'd say the top 5 would be:
1. Chase/ Julian
2. Shaun Livingston
3. Jerryd Bayless
4. Lance Thomas/JP Prince
5. Ndudi Ebi/Martell Webster/Marcus Williams(Rodney's #1 choice all along for '05)

[toadius]

"Just take a look at last season. With top-notch senior players, a a lottory-talent wing in Giddens and a very good freshman class, they completely bombed. No player got better and Giddens got worse. He's never done much with his players. Please correct me if I'm wrong."



You're wrong in a couple spots.

Giddens is a lottery caliber leaper. That's about it. He's been hurt every summer and hasn't developed any game involving dribbling the ball. He may, but yet another summer goes by with him recovering from an injury, even if this one appears to be a result of his own childishness. The rest of the team included a late first round pick and no other NBA talent logging minutes, as compared to Illannoy, UNC, you guys, Louisville, etc.etc. etc. It was a good team and capable of playing great games, but a team that depended too much on the driving of Langford to generate offense. When he got hurt and sick at the end of the year, they struggled.

But "completely bombed"? They won a share of an excellent conference's title. Under no circumstances can that be labeled "completely bombed". Bucknell was a bomb, to be sure, but with a healthy Langford, they probably go on to lose to Wisconsin or more likely UNC.

I've said this here before, but Miles and Simien especially improved greatly under Self. But players develop as much as they want to. The ones who work on their game at every available moment have a tendency to improve a lot more.

If it matters, Hinrich43 makes me laugh as much as he does you.

[aaa]

Are you serious? That is not a fair statement my man, Brian Cook? Self has not been anywhere long enough to show what he can do, and I will just leave it at that. So what Lute is the coach to show him how to play? Andre Igoudala ring a bell? Well when he was drafted he still couldn't shoot, so much for Lute helping him out.

Go look up how many players Lute has put in the NBA.

[Ben Hansen]

Newsflash:Kansas is going to be very good again this year. Another Final Four contender even with all those young guys in the rotation.

[satanraptor]

I'm not predicting any final fours just yet. Not even close. Just getting a NCAA tournament bid is all i'm hoping for.

Ben, you've seen these young guys play more than anybody on this board, do you really think they can have that type of impact so early? I figure we'll struggle into Jan. at least. Hopefully by then the young guys start to gel, sooner rather than later.

[TheOriginalAZ]

I agree this is a great recruiting class for KU but I wonder how the chemistry will be and how many seasons they'll actually play together as it seems like these guys want to jump to the NBA ASAP especially Wright and Rush.

[Ben Hansen]

Don't forget Chalmers...he's the best freshman PG in America along with Greg Paulus at Duke.

[aaa]

Newsflash:Kansas is going to be very good again this year. Another Final Four contender even with all those young guys in the rotation.

just like last year?

[TheCat]

Julian will make an impact....It is more difficult for guards........I have seen downs play 3 times......he will not make much of an impact because of the strength involved in the college game. He will not be as good as Padgett was his freshman yr.

[TheOriginalAZ]

Don't forget Chalmers...he's the best freshman PG in America along with Greg Paulus at Duke.

Yeah but do you see Chalmers as a one and done candidate?

[RubenD]

Newsflash:Kansas is going to be very good again this year. Another Final Four contender even with all those young guys in the rotation.

Didn't Andy Katz have them preseason ranked at #26?

[Bucktown]

Self has not been anywhere long enough to show what he can do, and I will just leave it at that.

Thank god...

Signed, The Illinois Fan...

[Indywildcatfan]

Don't forget Chalmers...he's the best freshman PG in America along with Greg Paulus at Duke.

That is scary. After watching Greg Paulus in the MD All American game, I was amazed. All I could think is how in the heck did Duke steal that kid?

Was Arizona ever on that kid? His name doesn't ring a bell.

That kid is gonig to be an awesome college player, and most likely pro as well.

If Chalmers has similar abilities, KU is in good hands.

[ZONACAT]

Chalmers will be good, but its not like he's going to improve under Self.

[Hinrichfor3]

Didn't Andy Katz have them preseason ranked at #26?

Yes he did, but that was before Kansas signed Brandon Rush, who all who have seen him play say he is a major upgrade to JR Giddens. Brandon Rush is an NBA ready talent. He was borderline first rounder, he could have gone anywhere from 23 to 40.

I know that Rush pulled out of the draft, but he did it because he knew there was no guarentee he would go in the first round. He was really impressive to the scouts in Chicago, it wasn't his ability that made them question him it was the fact that they didn't know if Rush would fit into the team concept.

Which is why Kansas is a great choice for him, various scouts have said if Rush can manage to mesh, not shoot the ball like crazy to impress them, with the calibur of players that KU has recruited in 05 then his draft stock will soar.

[Chicat]

it wasn't his ability that made them question him it was the fact that they didn't know if Rush would fit into the team concept.

Which is why Kansas is a great choice for him

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

Classic, Heinrichfor0 . . . simply classic.

[beardownbaby]

Giddens is a lottery caliber leaper. That's about it. He's been hurt every summer and hasn't developed any game involving dribbling the ball. He may, but yet another summer goes by with him recovering from an injury, even if this one appears to be a result of his own childishness. The rest of the team included a late first round pick and no other NBA talent logging minutes, as compared to Illannoy, UNC, you guys, Louisville, etc.etc. etc. It was a good team and capable of playing great games, but a team that depended too much on the driving of Langford to generate offense. When he got hurt and sick at the end of the year, they struggled.

But "completely bombed"? They won a share of an excellent conference's title. Under no circumstances can that be labeled "completely bombed". Bucknell was a bomb, to be sure, but with a healthy Langford, they probably go on to lose to Wisconsin or more likely UNC.

I've said this here before, but Miles and Simien especially improved greatly under Self. But players develop as much as they want to. The ones who work on their game at every available moment have a tendency to improve a lot more.
I think you're wrong in a couple spots, toadius. Giddens was a bonafide three-point threat as a freshman, then completely regressed. He could leap, but he had A TON of potential to become something more. The fact that Self never required him to move inside the three-point line was always the most mind-boggling move of the college basketball season. If I'm allowed to, which I am, I would say that makes Self a big-time idiot. What a waste of athleticism.

You're right that Miles and Simien vastly improved under Self, while Langford never got better once Self came. Even still, with the Big Four Seniors (Michael Lee included), Giddens and a slew of capable role players on the bench, KU completely bombed last year.

As a fan of an elite-level college basketball team, you cannot bank on regular-season success when your team loses in the first-round to a No. 14 seed. The fact that KU won the Big 12 means zero. They bombed, and the season was a huge disappointment as a result. That was a team that had every reason to be in the Final Four.

Self's abilities to coach should be very much in question.

[Ben Hansen]

Didn't Oklahoma win the Big XII title? Sorry, was in rehab and missed some games so don't know for sure but I thought Oklahoma won it thanks to Terrell Everett and David Godbold playing central roles.

[Hinrichfor3]

Nope KU and Oklahoma tied for the Big 12 title, now the Big 12 tournament is another story Ben.

By the way Ben are u being serious that KU will be a final four contender? As much as I would like to believe that I can't, anything more than a first round win is gravy in my opinion.

[JMarkJohns]

First off, Chalmers was every bit as impressive in the McD's AA game as Paulus. Maybe even more so. He went for over 20 points with a handful of rebounds and assists. He dominated for the West. I'd say it went McRoberts, Green, Chalmers, Paulus, Webster for top 5 impact/impressions for me...

Also, Rush was nowhere near the 1st-round. Again, there are reviews of his performances, unfortunately most have been deleted since Draftcity went belly up. But of the reviews I found (in the Official Draft Thread in the NBA forum), ESPN and others all loved Rush's potential, but all had him going mid 2nd-round. He bombed in several camps/workouts and his work ethic and conditioning was the focal point. He was very lazy and seemed very slow on the court.

Rush is a geat get. Make no mistake. But on a team like Kansas which is already stacked at his position and with a questionable (at best) coach, I don't think he gets a team concept and therefore ventures out on his own as a way to punch his own meal ticket for the League.

[Ben Hansen]

I think their young corps of guys could be very good by the end of the year. They have enough talent and potential to surprise people in the tournament and win a number of games.

But I can also see them having a first-round exit, because Bill Self is a liability at coach and thelack of experience among the starting five could spell doom. If all these freshmen and Stewart stick around for 2006-07, Kansas will be VERY good.

It's a young team that excites me. I've always thought very highly of Julian, Chalmers and Downs.

[Hinrichfor3]

O I see what you mean, thanks for your time Ben :cool:

[aural_tooth]

Chalmers will be good, but its not like he's going to improve under Self.

You're right. Good call.

Sincerely,

Deron Williams

[JMarkJohns]

You're right. Good call.

Sincerely,

Deron Williams

HUH?

Williams, under Self: 6.5 ppg, 4.6 apg, average shooting...
1st year without Self: 14 ppg, 6.2 apg, decent shooting...
last year, without Self: 12.5 ppg, 6.8 apg, good shooting...

I'm not seeing where you claim is coming from.

[Jason Scheer]

HUH?

Williams, under Self: 6.5 ppg, 4.6 apg, average shooting...
1st year without Self: 14 ppg, 6.2 apg, decent shooting...
last year, without Self: 12.5 ppg, 6.8 apg, good shooting...

I'm not seeing where you claim is coming from.

His ass. Thataway to back it up aural

JMark- I clicked edit instead of quote by accident...ohhh those mod powers :)

[Bucktown]

HUH?

Williams, under Self: 6.5 ppg, 4.6 apg, average shooting...
1st year without Self: 14 ppg, 6.2 apg, decent shooting...
last year, without Self: 12.5 ppg, 6.8 apg, good shooting...

I'm not seeing where you claim is coming from.

Sincerely...I'm so much happier with our pace and play under Weber than under the Hi/Lo from Self...it's such a joy to watch now.

[JMarkJohns]

JMark- I clicked edit instead of quote by accident...ohhh those mod powers :)

I've done that before :roll: At least a dozen times.

No prollem.

[Hinrichfor3]

HUH?

Williams, under Self: 6.5 ppg, 4.6 apg, average shooting...
1st year without Self: 14 ppg, 6.2 apg, decent shooting...
last year, without Self: 12.5 ppg, 6.8 apg, good shooting...

I'm not seeing where you claim is coming from.


It's called experience and progression, just like Aaron Miles improved under Bill Self so did Deron Williams under Bruce Webber.

Your remark is stupid for a variety of reasons, first off it's a known fact that numbers usually increase after every year played. Look at all the stud players that got drafted your going to tell me that they averaged the same amount of points from their freshman year to their senior year? That's cra*p. With experience and progression comes a higher point total. Deron was a freshman under Self what did you expect him to be Carmelo Anthony or something? He averaged what a freshman would average, a decent, not great point total.

[toadius]

"Giddens was a bonafide three-point threat as a freshman, then completely regressed. He could leap, but he had A TON of potential to become something more. The fact that Self never required him to move inside the three-point line was always the most mind-boggling move of the college basketball season. If I'm allowed to, which I am, I would say that makes Self a big-time idiot. What a waste of athleticism."


Agree to disagree, here, bdb. As I said earlier, it's Giddens' responsibility to work on his game and improve. When he has an offseason to work on it, he probably will improve in a lot of areas. Self didn't want him dribbling and it doesn't take a Rhodes scholar to see why. That's Self's fault? LOL. I think not. Giddens did eventually start driving once in a blue moon, but that was after his shot started failing.

"You're right that Miles and Simien vastly improved under Self, while Langford never got better once Self came. Even still, with the Big Four Seniors (Michael Lee included), Giddens and a slew of capable role players on the bench, KU completely bombed last year."


Repeating it doesn't make it true, unfortunately. KU was ranked in the top ten, top five for a good chunk of the year. When they started getting injured, they started losing games. It happens. Splitting a conference title, especially in one of the top four leagues in the country, simply cannot be construed as bombing, unless you're bombed. ;)

"As a fan of an elite-level college basketball team, you cannot bank on regular-season success when your team loses in the first-round to a No. 14 seed. The fact that KU won the Big 12 means zero. They bombed, and the season was a huge disappointment as a result. That was a team that had every reason to be in the Final Four."

Why reply to me if you're going to ignore my points? Look at the teams in the Final Four. Look at KU's. How much NBA talent was in those teams' rotation?
In KU's? Hell, look at the Elite 8. Your team easily had more talent top to bottom among the significant minute getters.

Hey, they had experience and a good squad. But the Final Four was not their birthright or anything. And they had to be healthy to have a shot at it. They probably could have made it to the elite 8 or at least sweet sixteen if it had been anyone but Langford (or Simien) that was hurt. It doesn't change the fact that they had a very successful season. It just ended badly.

I realize this is a lost cause as some folks are into hating KU, and REALLY into it since Self showed up. But try to stay rational, at least. That's all I ask. ;)

[Bucktown]

Hinirich-

I agree that experience is a huge factor. That said, I think our gaurds, and our team in general, played and progressed much better under Weber than under Bill Self. Having watched both coaches in person, the difference between the presence of a Self coached Illinois and a Weber coached Illinois team is like night and day.

Don't get me wrong. I was pissed when Self left for Kansas. However, that's all a distant memory now.

[Hinrichfor3]

Buck,

Your guards never really got the chance to improve under Self now did they? So it is really dumb to say that they did better with Webber when Self never got a fair shot at them. Maybe they would not have blossomed under Self but common sense says otherwise.

Just my 2 cents Buck... :cool:

[JMarkJohns]

Frank Williams didn't improve. He averaged more points, but did so on more shots in more minutes. It's the basic cycle for players under Self.

[Hinrichfor3]

Frank Williams didn't improve. He averaged more points, but did so on more shots in more minutes. It's the basic cycle for players under Self.

Man stop, just stop. What your whole basis is that a coach can make or break a players NBA career. Where is Frank Williams now? Nowhere after getting dropped by the Bulls right. So who was teaching him in the NBA? So if that NBA coach didn't get Frank Williams to improve then how the hell could Self or anyone else do it?

This is so stupid players improve with experience and strength. What your saying is that you give Bruce Webber Frank Williams and all of a sudden he becomes a NBA starter, no way in hell. Frank Williams does not have what it takes to play, period end of story, if he did he would be in the NBA right now.

Ben, can you please chime in on this? To a certain extent they might improve a a little bit with adressing there weakness' in terms of coaching, but at the end of the day either you can play or you can't.

Don't even tell me that Deron Williams would not have been selected where he was if Self was his coach. That kid had stud written all over him the minute he stepped on the court.

[Ben Hansen]

I agree with your take on D.Williams but Frank has no excuse for not being in the L. He is exceptionally talented and I could argue that it's pretty clear that Weber has proven to be a solid developer of perimeter players at IL, look at Luther Head, not to mention Dee and Deron, who were already NBA-bound when they got to IL. But Head has been better than just about anyone's hopes, I would imagine.

Self deserves credit for making Miles better , esp as a shooter, but you can argue that players are really the only ones capable of improving their shot through extensive repetition in practice.I'm disappointed in how Giddens fared at KU and Self has to take partial blame there.
It is my belief that a coach's greatest value comes by teaching kids how to deal with situations and to give them a better understanding of the game's nuances.
Frank Williams wasan amazing high school and college player whose skills were never refined in my opinion.

[Hinrichfor3]

I'm disappointed in how Giddens fared at KU and Self has to take partial blame there.

As is all the KU fans. But seriously speaking Giddens never did get a chance to improve his game. After freshman year he suffered a foot injury that kept him out all summer, so no chance there. After sophmore year the infamous Knife incident in which all the coaches were saying he had improved dramatically and that he was working really hard. Also making himself out to be the leader of the young Hawks, so in a sense I am quite sad that I never did get to find out what could have been JR Giddens Junior year.

Ben would you say that Frank was taught by NBA coaches in his stay there? If so then would he not have improved and if he has the talent you say he has then wouldnt he have made it in the NBA? So if the NBA coaches couldnt fix him how the heck could Self do any better? Frank has talent but it is in no way Self's fault, he did everything in his power to help Frank out.

[Ben Hansen]

As is all the KU fans. But seriously speaking Giddens never did get a chance to improve his game. After freshman year he suffered a foot injury that kept him out all summer, so no chance there. After sophmore year the infamous Knife incident in which all the coaches were saying he had improved dramatically and that he was working really hard. Also making himself out to be the leader of the young Hawks, so in a sense I am quite sad that I never did get to find out what could have been JR Giddens Junior year.

Having seen the full package JR in high school, all I can say is I'm sad, too. It's college basketball's loss since he could have been a truly special player.

Ben would you say that Frank was taught by NBA coaches in his stay there? If so then would he not have improved and if he has the talent you say he has then wouldnt he have made it in the NBA? So if the NBA coaches couldnt fix him how the heck could Self do any better? Frank has talent but it is in no way Self's fault, he did everything in his power to help Frank out.

Not saying it's all Self, just partially. I personally believe players can't develop as much once in the NBA due to infrequent practices and personal attention from coaches. Mainly, Frank should have improved in his first few years at Illinois. I'm sure Self will eventually prove himself in the player development area, but keep in mind that you're on an Arizona board and we're used to the game's Ultimate developer of talent in Lute Olson.Just like long division, you have to show your work before getting full credit.

Personally, I'm going to judge Self on what he does with CJ Giles, a monster talent with a raw foundation.He could be a Lottery pick for sure with good improvement at KU.

[Hinrichfor3]

Fair enough, and yes I agree Arizona is known to develop players, point guard U... :cool:

Did you ever catch the game where JR Giddens jumped over a guy in high school during a game and slammed it home? That was so sweet.

I know CJ is a talent, I hope he isn't as foul phrone as last year but what he did against Kentucky was special...I can't wait until we get a shot you guys, it should be fun, well as long as you guys dont blow us out.

[Bucktown]

From watching both players in every game their entire career, I feel like D. Williams has/had mountains more heart/determination than Frank Williams. Frank Williams had some of the best, most natural PG talent of anyone who ever put on the uniform at Illinois. Some of his moves and cross overs were absolutely sick. He had an incredibly weak cast in comparison to his talent, but I personally always though motivation was a problem with both Krueger and Self led teams...something that luckily seems to not be a problem with Weber, but we'll see this year as we struggle with every single game.

[Bucktown]

But Head has been better than just about anyone's hopes, I would imagine.

Ben, you would be right...especially since Luther Head basically changed his game 180% from the start of his college career to the end. He started as a slasher/dunker to an outside threat and a guard.

[JMarkJohns]

Deron Williams was not a lottory pick until last season.

He would have been drafted, but there's no way he's the first PG off the board under Self. Williams is flighty. He needed discipline before he made his bed (basketball speaking). Hes got a poor work ethic and questionable decision making.

I wonder why? :rolleyes: He was allowed to just do whatever, no matter and while he put up nice PPG numbers in college, because he was basically just a volume scorer, he couldn't have an impact offensively in the League.

Had he learned discipline, he may have been different.

[Jason Scheer]

Ask Illinois fans if they would rather have Weber or Self and I would assume the majority would say Weber. Self needs somebody to improve when he is there for the complete time, not somebody like Williams who has his breakout season once Self leaves.

[Chicat]

Ask Illinois fans if they would rather have Weber or Self and I would assume the majority would say Weber. Self needs somebody to improve when he is there for the complete time, not somebody like Williams who has his breakout season once Self leaves.
I went to the Oregon/Illinois game here in Chicago at the United Center and I sat with a bunch of Illinois fans (ok, the entire arena was a sea of orange) and from the people that I was with, the consensus was Weber, without a doubt. Oh yeah, Bucktown was one of them, and I think he can confirm that the fans are VERY pleased with Weber and wouldn't trade him for anyone.

[Hinrichfor3]

I went to the Oregon/Illinois game here in Chicago at the United Center and I sat with a bunch of Illinois fans (ok, the entire arena was a sea of orange) and from the people that I was with, the consensus was Weber, without a doubt. Oh yeah, Bucktown was one of them, and I think he can confirm that the fans are VERY pleased with Weber and wouldn't trade him for anyone.


That's funny because Webber still has yet to prove he can bring in a top notch recruiting class for one. Two he won with A Mcdonalds All-American, something he has yet to be able to recruit, and a lottery pick which were both provided by one Bill Self. Your kidding yourself if you think Webber can turn every player like Luther Head into a stud, it was once in a lifetime occurrence, just like Okafor at #99.

Webber will struggle without Dee Brown, but he lucked out and has him for another year. I mean what does it tell you when a kid is a second round pick and decides to leave the program even though he has eligibility left? Webber lucked out.

When has Bruce Webber won without Bill's players? NEVER. So essentially he has proven that he has coaching ability, but without talent what's the use? Think about this Webber had a lottery pick, a Mcdonalds All America, and a decent bench, do you honestly believe he will be able to put those three together again? Personally I will judge Webber on if he reaches the elite 8 ever with his own players. But we will have to wait until next year for that as the Illini still have Augistine and Brown.

Why do you think the Illini I so bitter toward Self? Because they loved the guy, simply put. Why do you think KU fans are bitter toward Roy? Because we loved the guy. Stating otherwise in both situations is stupid, if they didn't like Self when he was at Illinois they wouldn't show the anger they do toward him...he left Illinois for his "dream" job which means KU is better than Illinois and it is obviously, there is no denying that. Bottom line they are bitter toward him because he left for a better program when they think they are the better program, if you ask them they say belong with the elite of college basketball, wrong.

Don't get me wrong Illinois is up there on the 2nd tier but not on the 1st with Kansas.

[Bucktown]

Well, I'd say he landed pretty good recruits in Brian Carlwell and Richard Semrau if you'd ask me. I know, they haven't signed yet, but Semrau has solid verbal and Carlwell isn't far behind. I'm pretty pleased with those guys. Added that he took SIU from the joke of the MVC to a contender, I'd say we're just fine with Bruce Weber.

You may have missed where I said I was pissed at Self for leaving. I was...I was super pissed...but get over yourself, it didn't have shiit to do with envy for Lawerence. It had evrything to do with Illinois. Self leaves, Dee Brown hints at it, everyone is unsure what it meant for us. It had everything to do with Illinois and little to do about envy for Self getting lost in the Phog. That said, now that Bruce has proven that while yes, Self could recruit, that Weber could coach more outta those recruits, I'm not upset anymore. With the way Bruce coaches, the recruits will come around.

Concentrate on Kansas...I'll concentrate on Illinois.

Edit - We weren't bitter because we loved the guy, we were bitter because we love the program. If you wanna worship Roy, that's your problem.

[Hinrichfor3]

We weren't bitter because we loved the guy, we were bitter because we love the program

Yeah right....if you didn't love Self you would not be in your words "pissed", you would be happy because you would be getting a better coach no?

If you love the program you generally love the coach and I'm sure a lot of Illini fans loved him.

I never once said anything close to worshipping Roy. I loved the guy, he was great and when he left I was more sad than pissed but I was pissed. I was pissed because someone I really admired was leaving us. I'm 100% sure a lot of Illinois fans felt the same way, someone who they really liked was leaving them.

Just admit it you loved Self, but I guess now you have someone that you love even more right?

Yes the recruits that Webber got are good, but not great. To stay with the elite you have to recruit the great and the good, not just the good. Don't get caught up in the fact that Webber helped Luther become a 1st rounder, like I said before it was a once in a lifetime occurrence. Yes he may help your players become better but never again will he take a Luther Head and turn him into a 1st rounder.

[JMarkJohns]

Look, this whole thread was whether or not Self can maximize the talent he has. No one denies that he's a great recruiter. He's prolly top-5 in the NCAA. He always has talent, but going on record, he's rarely been able to maximize it.

Weber, on the other hand, has always done well with less and did great last year with more. With far less talent than NC and roughly the same level of experience, they were right there with NC in the closing minutes. That's coaching.

What not is choking in the closing minutes to Bucknell in the first round of the Tournament with arguably top-5 talent in the country after struggling down the stretch of the regular season.

Self >>>> Weber in recruiting
Weber >> Self in coaching

But Weber was in it for Wright, in it for Rush, in it for Scheyer and in it for Livingston. Not too shabby while also pullin' in Pruitt, Carlwell and Semrau.

Weber will keep Illinois significant long enough to build a very good program.
Self will recruit better and do less.

Just my semi-educated, commen sense opinion.

[Bucktown]

Yeah right....if you didn't love Self you would not be in your words "pissed", you would be happy because you would be getting a better coach no?

No...seeing as he left in the middle of the night and we were without a coach for awhile, we weren't sure who we were getting. An admittedly good coach and amazing recruiter left the program I love...I was pissed.

If you love the program you generally love the coach and I'm sure a lot of Illini fans loved him.

No again. I think Weber is a great coach, but he's been there for what, going on 3 years now? Kreuger was there for 3 years...never loved him. Self was there for 3 years...never loved him. Lou Hensen? Loved that guy...loyality.

I never once said anything close to worshipping Roy. I loved the guy, he was great and when he left I was more sad than pissed but I was pissed. I was pissed because someone I really admired was leaving us. I'm 100% sure a lot of Illinois fans felt the same way, someone who they really liked was leaving them.

Just admit it you loved Self, but I guess now you have someone that you love even more right?

I don't fall in love that quickly. You may not worship Roy Williams, but I know a good number of KU alumnus...they worship the guy.

Yes the recruits that Webber got are good, but not great. To stay with the elite you have to recruit the great and the good, not just the good. Don't get caught up in the fact that Webber helped Luther become a 1st rounder, like I said before it was a once in a lifetime occurrence. Yes he may help your players become better but never again will he take a Luther Head and turn him into a 1st rounder.

I'd say the recruits Weber got are pretty damn good for a guy in his 2nd year at a major name school. Your once in a lifetime statement...we'll, I just don't make absolutions like that...about anything. Staying with the elite...well...let's just leave that alone. We're not there yet, but I'm trying real hard ringo...

[Bucktown]

JMJ...you said it better than I could hope to. Thanks.

[Chicat]

What not is choking in the closing minutes to Bucknell in the first round of the Tournament with arguably top-5 talent in the country after struggling down the stretch of the regular season.
Ouch.

Hinrichfor0, did you need a bandaid for that ouchy you just got on your ego?

[DCCat]

Illinois is still in the mix for Jasper and Muonelo as well. Probably not a real high probability of success there, but if either of those guys picks Illinois, I'd say Weber has a very nice class on his hands.

[Hinrichfor3]

Illinois is still in the mix for Jasper and Muonelo as well

Uhh no. Muonelo is leaning toward KU and OSU, no way in hell does he end up at Illinois.

On the Bucknell comment, wow that hurts that really hurts....please. Arizona fans should not be talking about early exits.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not commenting on your team. Just your coach.

Has Self ever made a legit run?

[Hinrichfor3]

I'm not commenting on your team. Just your coach.
Has Self ever made a legit run?

Yeah, Elite 8.... :cool: I agree that he can be questioned a bit in terms of coaching, but I guess only time will tell if he improves on that. Now if this KU team does nothing for Wright, Chalmers and Downs sophmore year then yeah eyebrows will be raised and some will calling for Self's neck.

[the goat]

That elite 8 run is a complete joke. Might have been the easiest elite 8 run I have seen this side of Duke.

[Hinrichfor3]

That elite 8 run is a complete joke. Might have been the easiest elite 8 run I have seen this side of Duke.

I was not talking about that elite 8 I was talking about the one with Tulsa, I would say that is one hell of an accomplishment wouldn't you say? In that tournament his team beat UNLV, Cincinnati and Miami before narrowly losing to UNC in the regional final. At the end of the season Self got that team ranked at #9 in the country.I don't know about you but that is a heck of a coaching job in my eyes. Self has made it to 3 elite 8's one with Tulsa, Illinois and Kansas.

Oh and on the easy comment for the elite eight last year, easy or not we gave Geiorgia Tech, (who made that title game that year) a run for their money and then some. So don't give me that bull****, it's not our fault that Kentucky lost, I was looking forward to a UK vs KU match up but UK lost to a team that KU absoulutely dismantled.

[Bucktown]

Oh and on the easy comment for the elite eight last year, easy or not we gave Geiorgia Tech, (who made that title game that year) a run for their money and then some. So don't give me that bull****, it's not our fault that Kentucky lost, I was looking forward to a UK vs KU match up but UK lost to a team that KU absoulutely dismantled.

I'm confused about all of this...I thought Kansas lost...plain and simple...lost...maybe no...so, where the hell did you guys end up?

Anyway, I'm sure there is always a reason why Kansas shoulda won (cause they have tradition damnit!) but yea, I could give a **** about that. F4fours mean dick...apparently winning nearly 20 years ago counts for a big deal...

Edit - Until Illinois wins, they're not on the elete level with Kansas players from nearly 20 bones ago...

[Hinrichfor3]

Bucktown you know what I meant by last year don't play stupid. If Final Fours don't mean **** then I don't know what qualifies as a successful season. I don't know what your smoking but I know that Final Fours do in fact mean something. It means your one of the 4 best teams in the country, that's impressive.


apparently winning nearly 20 years ago counts for a big deal...

Well apparently winning 5 years ago, o wait 8 years ago...o wait you haven't won anything that's right... :rolleyes:

Well I know this counts as a big deal, there are not many teams that can accomplish a feat like this....

Over the past 4 years KU has made it to 2 final fours, a championship game and an Elite 8. I'd say that's spectacular...no?

[Bucktown]

Let me clarify myself. Final fours are important from a recruiting standpoint. But to say, "How many final fours have you been to in x years?" Come off it...no one other than the students at the schools involved care about who was in the final four. They care about who was the champion.

People remember the champions...plain and simple. Quick, top of your head, who was in the final four in 1995? Bottom line, we haven't won a NC, so we haven't done anything that most other schools have. I'm just saying that you're milking the last championship you got to the last drop.

[Chicat]

O I see what you mean, thanks for your time Ben :cool:
Ben, can you please chime in on this?
Was everything that Crispcup said not true? Every single thing he said was true with the exception of the Lance Thomas to Duke thing, which for all we know may be true. At there is someone with enough balls to tell it to Hansen like it is.

Hansen is stupid, simply put

You're a f*cking joke. Crawl back to Phog now and tell them all how you're still trying to get banned here. Or did you want to suck up to one of the writers a little more before you head back on over there to trash him. You are a poor excuse for a human being.

[JMarkJohns]

"Oops!"
- 'Doc' Holiday, "TOMBSTONE"

[Hinrichfor3]

I can't help but notice the lack of any significant talent in Lute's last two classes, albeit, he did strike gold with that volleyball player. Anyway, maybe as an 'assist' to the Old Man's recruiting, Auti can get to more basketball tournies and let UA recruiting targets drive her Jeep? Heck, it can't hurt, it landed you Jawaan, now didn't it? [pondering a possibility to myself]Hmm..., wonder if that was a recruiting violation or what...hmmm.[/pondering a possibility to myself] Hey, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, since Lute is getting ready to retire and recruits know that, as evidenced by the strike outs recently from a once proud program. Consider this a wake up call and as always, you all keep Bearing Down on those turds.

[ASUCatfan]

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/818/icyhotstuntazcopy4qr.gif

[JMarkJohns]

I can't help but notice the lack of any significant talent in Lute's last two classes, albeit, he did strike gold with that volleyball player. Anyway, maybe as an 'assist' to the Old Man's recruiting, Auti can get to more basketball tournies and let UA recruiting targets drive her Jeep? Heck, it can't hurt, it landed you Jawaan, now didn't it? [pondering a possibility to myself]Hmm..., wonder if that was a recruiting violation or what...hmmm.[/pondering a possibility to myself] Hey, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, since Lute is getting ready to retire and recruits know that, as evidenced by the strike outs recently from a once proud program. Consider this a wake up call and as always, you all keep Bearing Down on those turds.

lmao... this has to be thee worst post ever! Can we copy and paste this into it's own one post thread and stick it up at the top?

I don't even know where to begin...

Last two classes, as in 2004, 2005...

OK, 2004 yielded a top-5 SG and top-20 overall wing in McClellan, a top-20 PF/C and top 75 overall big in Tangara and 2005 yielded top-5 PG and top-25 overall wing in Prince, top-10 SF/PF and top-30 overall wing forward in Onobun and a top-15 SF and top-75 overall wing in Williams.

In total, two 5-star prospects, three 4-star prospects and Dillon, Kentucky's Mr. Basketball says that talent is still flowin' in...

Maybe it's not Kansas' class, but in two years you'll be lucky if any are still playing for your U.

In 2006 AZ has a top-10, top-70, a potential top-25 and a PG who was once ranked top-5 in the class. Why he's fallen is beyond me, but everyone that watches sees the slight. He may not be top-5 anymore, but that level of impact isn't unreasonable when you go on track record.


As for striking "gold" with that volleyball player :rolleyes: Yeah, because a program that routinely nets 4/5 star prospects just gets lucky with them all. Actually being a top-flight program and a top-5 program over the last 15/20 years has absolutely nothing to do with it.


"15 minutes of fame"?!?!

That's the most idiotic statement any Kansas fan has ever made in reguards to Arizona. Maybe towards any school. 20+ consecutive NCAA Tourneys, 1 National Title, two other Final Fours, at least three other Elite Eights...

Really, does 20 years of dominating the west and being nationally competative qualify as 15 minutes of fame? If so, then you'd best take a long, hard look in the mirror because your school hasn't approached such in over several decades.


Sure, Lute will be retiring and when he does, I'm sure several well-known candidates will be fighting for this gig. Perhaps it'll even be a candidate that doesn't offer coaching jobs to players he's recruiting? That would be wonderful.


And do you really want to start in on potential violations? Hell, I guess this means I get to call taint on your last National Championship considering the boat Larry Brown lept from was dirty, dirty, dirty...


You're a joke. Straight forward, let it all out, moron.

You should be proud...

[Chicat]

I can't help but notice the lack of any significant talent in Lute's last two classes, albeit, he did strike gold with that volleyball player. Anyway, maybe as an 'assist' to the Old Man's recruiting, Auti can get to more basketball tournies and let UA recruiting targets drive her Jeep? Heck, it can't hurt, it landed you Jawaan, now didn't it? [pondering a possibility to myself]Hmm..., wonder if that was a recruiting violation or what...hmmm.[/pondering a possibility to myself] Hey, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, since Lute is getting ready to retire and recruits know that, as evidenced by the strike outs recently from a once proud program. Consider this a wake up call and as always, you all keep Bearing Down on those turds.

You are a wee little man, aren't you . . .

Isn't it about time that you run back to your girlfriend En***o and talk some more shiit about this site and the admin? Then slink on back in a couple of weeks and beg Ben to back you up on one of your ridiculous arguments?

As I have said before and I will say again, you are a poor excuse for a human being. Now run along asshat before you catch a smack.

[Dubbin]

I can't help but notice the lack of any significant talent in Lute's last two classes, albeit, he did strike gold with that volleyball player. Anyway, maybe as an 'assist' to the Old Man's recruiting, Auti can get to more basketball tournies and let UA recruiting targets drive her Jeep? Heck, it can't hurt, it landed you Jawaan, now didn't it? [pondering a possibility to myself]Hmm..., wonder if that was a recruiting violation or what...hmmm.[/pondering a possibility to myself] Hey, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, since Lute is getting ready to retire and recruits know that, as evidenced by the strike outs recently from a once proud program. Consider this a wake up call and as always, you all keep Bearing Down on those turds.

One of the worst posts in the history of GOAZCATS.com. I can't wait unitl Maui when Kansas gets their asses handed to them. The only thing missing from your thread was saying that Lute was going to die soon.
BUCKNELL b!tch.

[PMacCat]

OK, fess up. Heinrichfor3 is really Enfuego in disguise, right? :rolleyes: