Pressure Mounting for Ben Howland

[BeachCat99]

As UCLA's football team continues its improbable march towards a potentially historical meeting with that other SoCal school, you can bet that Coach Howland is envisioning a similar run for his 2005-06 Bruins.

Now that Bruin football is, at least for the time being, back, one can only wonder how much longer it will be before Bruin basketball follows suit. Which, for instance, is more likely to happen first: UCLA reaches the Final Four or UCLA fires Ben Howland?

Howland's grace period is long over, and the over-achieving Bruin football team is going to raise expectations even higher for men's hoops.

If Dorrell can get to a BCS bowl while playing across town from the closest thing to a dynasty in all of sports, then you better believe Bruin fans are gonna expect Howland to win the Pac-10 and advance past the first weekend of the NCAAs.

My guess is that UCLA improves, but not dramatically. Howland is a good coach, not a great one, far beneath the pantheon reserved for Krzyzewski, B Knight, R Williams, L Olson, J Boeheim, J Calhoun, T Izzo, etc.

[Ziggiles]

All the hype in the media puts more pressure on Howland then anything else. The preseason rankings and magazines build up hope within the fan base and boosters that the return to glory is inevitable, however unlikely.

[azpatnca]

I bet he's wishing he could get some more of that home court advantage he had at Pitt in the NCAAs. Come on, can't you hold a regional at staples? They don't seem to have a problem having the Pac-10 tourney there.

Ha ha, just teasing all you Bruin fans, but your remember pitt/cal don't you? Cal playing Pitt in Mellon arena in 2002? Total BS.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/men/recaps/2002/03/17/pal_cah/

[Intermezzo]

The pressure is definitely mounting as a lot of Bruins are expecting Howland to do a lot more damage than last year. I'd be happy if UCLA could finish 2nd or 3rd in the conference and make it to the sweet 16.

Howland hasn't accomplished anything at all compared to some of those names you listed and as of right now, shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. But then again, he hasn't stayed at a high D-1 program long enough to show what he can accomplish. Pitt was his first major coaching job, which I think he did a good job turning around (COY in '02) and so far he has exceeded my expectations at UCLA. It's still early in the game though... a strong showing in his third year as coach is critical. Disappoint the fans this year and he'll start to feel the heat.

[11Banners]

As UCLA's football team continues its improbable march towards a potentially historical meeting with that other SoCal school, you can bet that Coach Howland is envisioning a similar run for his 2005-06 Bruins.

Now that Bruin football is, at least for the time being, back, one can only wonder how much longer it will be before Bruin basketball follows suit. Which, for instance, is more likely to happen first: UCLA reaches the Final Four or UCLA fires Ben Howland?

Howland's grace period is long over, and the over-achieving Bruin football team is going to raise expectations even higher for men's hoops.

If Dorrell can get to a BCS bowl while playing across town from the closest thing to a dynasty in all of sports, then you better believe Bruin fans are gonna expect Howland to win the Pac-10 and advance past the first weekend of the NCAAs.

My guess is that UCLA improves, but not dramatically. Howland is a good coach, not a great one, far beneath the pantheon reserved for Krzyzewski, B Knight, R Williams, L Olson, J Boeheim, J Calhoun, T Izzo, etc.

With our injuries at the moment, I won't really judge this team until the Pac-10 starts. Howland needs to sign Kevin Love. This is a must-get recruit who is being coached by Sven Nater and has a John Wooden Pyramid of Success poster on his wall.

This Bruin team has a lot of potential. Watch out for Ryan Hollins to be this year's Dijon Thompson/Drew Olson in a Bruin basketball uniform.

[Mustache Man]

So when does Howland get fired?

[Flipper]

So when does Howland get fired?

I'll make a bet with you, MM. And you can name the amount. I'd go for a few grand, if you want.

My bet is that Howland will STILL be at UCLA way after Lute Olson's done doing his thing at UofA.

[Chicat]

This is a must-get recruit who is being coached by Sven Nater and has a John Wooden Pyramid of Success poster on his wall.
11B, will you please get out of the bushes in front of KLove's house? That's a felony in most states...

:smooch:

[DCCat]

(Kevin Love) is a must-get recruit who ... has a John Wooden Pyramid of Success poster on his wall.
In which case he would probably want to go to the school that employs the coach that Wooden most admires: Lute Olson.

[haji81872]

That's because Lute and John were high school classmates.

[coloradoAZfan]

This is just my opinion but until UCLA can quit holding on to the glory of yesteryear and realize that Howland is his own man and let him be the coach that he is then they will never be satisfied...It is true that Wooden was probably the greatest college coach ever but that was in the past...UCLA can be a great basketball school again if only because they are in the center of one of the biggest hotbeds of high school basketball talent in the country and should be able to attract many of them to their campus...

If as haji81872 says that Lute and John were high school classmates was actually true (which I do realize it is not and that it was just a knock at Lutes age) then maybe UCLA should rehire Wooden to be the coach and bring back those glory days that everyone can't seem to let go of...I mean if old Lute can still do it why can't old John...

I hope that once Lute retires that the Arizona faithful will allow whomever the new coach ends up being the ability to be his own man and try to continue keeping Arizona in the elite level of college basketball and to realize that won't happen overnight...If we end up doing the same thing every year to every coach we may end up with always comparing them to Lute and the glory days then we will never be satisfied just like the UCLA fans of today are never satisfied...But again this is all just my opinion...

[11Banners]

This is just my opinion but until UCLA can quit holding on to the glory of yesteryear and realize that Howland is his own man and let him be the coach that he is then they will never be satisfied...It is true that Wooden was probably the greatest college coach ever but that was in the past...UCLA can be a great basketball school again if only because they are in the center of one of the biggest hotbeds of high school basketball talent in the country and should be able to attract many of them to their campus...

If as haji81872 says that Lute and John were high school classmates was actually true (which I do realize it is not and that it was just a knock at Lutes age) then maybe UCLA should rehire Wooden to be the coach and bring back those glory days that everyone can't seem to let go of...I mean if old Lute can still do it why can't old John...

I hope that once Lute retires that the Arizona faithful will allow whomever the new coach ends up being the ability to be his own man and try to continue keeping Arizona in the elite level of college basketball and to realize that won't happen overnight...If we end up doing the same thing every year to every coach we may end up with always comparing them to Lute and the glory days then we will never be satisfied just like the UCLA fans of today are never satisfied...But again this is all just my opinion...

This post really cracks me up. UCLA fans aren't the one's talking about mounting pressure on Ben, it's Arizona fans who are nervous about our return to the national stage.

And I'm not leaving Kevin Love's front yard until he commits!

[Ben Hansen]

I'll make a bet with you, MM. And you can name the amount. I'd go for a few grand, if you want.

My bet is that Howland will STILL be at UCLA way after Lute Olson's done doing his thing at UofA.


That's a pretty weak bet considering Lute's 71 and Howland might be 51.Then again, Lute is still as strong as ever and just beat Howland for Chase.

[11Banners]

That's a pretty weak bet considering Lute's 71 and Howland might be 51.Then again, Lute is still as strong as ever and just beat Howland for Chase.


Howland is 48.

But Flipper's bet might have some takers, such as Mustascheman who is convinced we're firing Howland really soon. I'll put some money on the bet as well.

[Mustache Man]

First, I won't take a bet that UCLA's coach can "outlast" a coach that is likely retiring within 5 years.

Second, the "Ben Howland getting fired" thing was sarcasm, but I've continued to state that UCLA's expectations for its basketball program are completely unrealistic, and if he's held to those standards, he will be gone shortly.

[azcat34]

This is a stupid thread. There is no pressure on Howland, he just took UCLA to the tournament after they were in the dumps 2 years ago and is set to the contend for the Pac-10 title this year and UCLA's future looks very bright.

A lot of people complain about UCLA fans flaming and how their are too many UCLA threads on this board, but when an Arizona fan starts a UCLA flame thread on an Arizona message board it just looks plain stupid.

Please end this stupid thread.

S.O.

[93GRAD]

This is a stupid thread. There is no pressure on Howland, he just took UCLA to the tournament after they were in the dumps 2 years ago and is set to the contend for the Pac-10 title this year and UCLA's future looks very bright.

A lot of people complain about UCLA fans flaming and how their are too many UCLA threads on this board, but when an Arizona fan starts a UCLA flame thread on an Arizona message board it just looks plain stupid.

Please end this stupid thread.

S.O.

Rep for azcat34! UCLA is on the way up. Howland's job is as safe as Romars.

[haji81872]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to azcat34 again.

[BeachCat97]

This post really cracks me up. UCLA fans aren't the one's talking about mounting pressure on Ben, it's Arizona fans who are nervous about our return to the national stage.

And I'm not leaving Kevin Love's front yard until he commits!

No, 11 Banners, we aren't "nervous" about UCLA's return to the national stage. The fact is that they've never *exited* the national stage; they've simply underachieved and embarassed the Pac-10 in recent years.

UCLA will always draw national attention, sort of like Notre Dame in football. You have Wooden to thank for that. The point is that UCLA's basketball program has had an anticlimactic history. They started great, basically setting the standard for college sports supremacy. But the years since Wooden (excluding their few brushes -- anomalies really -- with greatness -- '95, for example) have been spent in nostalgic longing.

The only reason UCLA has made the headlines in recent years has been for either (a) futility or (b) coaching changes. Imagine what it would be like if they actually made the headlines for a conference championship or a deep run in March.

The gap between the Pac-10 elite (Arizona, Stanford, and possibly Washington, we'll see) and UCLA is quite big. And while Howland *seems* to be turning things around, they still have a long way to go before they can be mentioned in the same discussion as the Wildcats.

[GreedyHo]

There are way to many UCLA threads on this board. All that does is bring out the UCLA flamers. It always amazes me how this site attracts so many posters from other schools. I only look at this fan site as I'm an Arizona alum and don't care about UCLA until we play them. I guess all the other posters from other schools that come here says a lot about goazcats. I really enjoy this site, but there are two things in particular I don't like.

1. The who is going to replace Lute thread that pops up in both the free and premium boards every couple months. Lets get over this one please.

2. When the board becomes dominated by fans from other schools. Yes, I'm talking about the UCLA, DUKE, AND KANSAS fans in particular. With DI gone, this area has improved a great deal. You still have the 11 banners, Flipper, Wolfie, and all the others who think Arizona fans really want to hear about UCLA or any other school. I realize that some of these threads are created by AZ fans. For the most part I ignore the threads about other schools. The exception to that is when Arizona is playing that school.

[Zero]

i just like seeing al lthe hate our teams fans have towards eachother again

glad to have it back

got tired of oregon and udub fans, ucla is our rival.

[11Banners]

No, 11 Banners, we aren't "nervous" about UCLA's return to the national stage. The fact is that they've never *exited* the national stage; they've simply underachieved and embarassed the Pac-10 in recent years.

UCLA will always draw national attention, sort of like Notre Dame in football. You have Wooden to thank for that. The point is that UCLA's basketball program has had an anticlimactic history. They started great, basically setting the standard for college sports supremacy. But the years since Wooden (excluding their few brushes -- anomalies really -- with greatness -- '95, for example) have been spent in nostalgic longing.

The only reason UCLA has made the headlines in recent years has been for either (a) futility or (b) coaching changes. Imagine what it would be like if they actually made the headlines for a conference championship or a deep run in March.

The gap between the Pac-10 elite (Arizona, Stanford, and possibly Washington, we'll see) and UCLA is quite big. And while Howland *seems* to be turning things around, they still have a long way to go before they can be mentioned in the same discussion as the Wildcats.

Well this has been discussed about 1,000,000 times with Arizona fans starting the threads about 95% of the time. Here in Westwood, we're extremely happy with Howland's freshman class (Farmar, Shipp, Afflalo, Mata) and his sophomore class (Roll, Collison, Luc (this kid will be a star), Aboya, Wright). If you think the gap is that big, SI should have Stanford and Arizona as the preseason #1 and 2 teams thsi year. Hyperbole? Yeah.

[GreedyHo]

I still can't figure out why UA passed on Farmar. Didn't he want to come to UA, but becuase of Shakur, Lute passed? Ben can probabaly clear that up. Farmar is a baller. I will not say another word about UCLA until we play them.

[beardownbaby]

The UA dropped the ball on Farmar's recruitment. The people in charge didn't impress the Farmars with their (lack of) knowledge of the UA's academic background.

When the UA wanted to snag Farmar, they had already done themselves in.

[Ben Hansen]

Jordan's parents were never letting him come to UA, period. Zags and Florida were his next choices. Stanford would have got him before UA, too for academic reasons.

But yes, when AZ had its shot, it blew it royall--even though he wasn't coming here anyway.

[Batpig]

Lets just clear a few things up:

1) Howland is not going to be fired this year PERIOD. He is not under pressure. He took a program that Lavin destroyed (worst finish in 50 years) and took them to the tourney in his second year.

2) Howland is a great coach (national COY in 2002) He is not on the level of the aformentioned coaches yet. In case you weren't aware Howland has been a Division 1 coach for all of 10 years whereas the others on that list have been on the job for a minimum of 25. Let's compare apples to apples people. Howland won national COY faster than Ole Lute did anyway.

3) WHat the football team does has absolutely nothing to do with Howland's job security. They are two different situations for 2 completely different programs. Any contention to the contrary is patently ridiculous and the person posting it has an agenda (i.e. Hoping that Howland gets fired).

4) I know this is a basketball forum, but I have dispell something that was previously posted in this thread. UCLA football is not overachieving. They are a great team with a ton of talent. A senior QB that has been in the system for three years and is very confident and talented (Elite 11 QB out of high school). We have the consensus number one tight end in the country and the second best all purpose back in the country behind Bush. Mo Drew Leads the nation in punt return average and returns for TD's as and is top 5 in all purpose yards per game. You will find out how good this team is when we annihilate your Mildcats in 2 weeks. You should stick to a sport where you have a snowball's chance in hell of beating us.

5) The Kevind Love issue... best current information has UCLA in the drivers' seat in Love's recruitment. Duke is a close second. Zona is a distant third at this point. Keep your fingers crossed on this one because a ton of luck is the only way Love will be wearing red on game days in 2007.

[azpatnca]

As a U of A fan, let me just say this: UCLA can bite me. :) As can everyone else!!!

[Flipper]

First, I won't take a bet that UCLA's coach can "outlast" a coach that is likely retiring within 5 years.

Second, the "Ben Howland getting fired" thing was sarcasm, but I've continued to state that UCLA's expectations for its basketball program are completely unrealistic, and if he's held to those standards, he will be gone shortly.

I'll say this for the last time. THOSE expectations are a thing of the past. Two years of below .500 results tend to do that. If the fans were still unrealistic, he would have been blown out after his first year.

Yet, he's still here, with a roster that should start to show what kind of a coach he can be, and the type of program that he'll establish. Still, we fully understand that he needs to start contending for both conference titles and deep NCAA runs shortly within the next season or two.

[Mustache Man]

I'll say this for the last time. THOSE expectations are a thing of the past. Two years of below .500 results tend to do that. If the fans were still unrealistic, he would have been blown out after his first year.

Yet, he's still here, with a roster that should start to show what kind of a coach he can be, and the type of program that he'll establish. Still, we fully understand that he needs to start contending for both conference titles and deep NCAA runs shortly within the next season or two.

So those aren't unrealistic expectations?

[xethw]

Howland's grace period is long over, and the over-achieving Bruin football team is going to raise expectations even higher for men's hoops.

Isn't this upcoming season only Howland's third? I would think he's already bought himself two or three extra years, just by making the NCAA tourney so soon after Jim Harrick's poor final years.

By the way, I don't think Jim Harrick was that bad of a coach. He was a dynamite recruiter, although he lost focus of team chemistry over pure talent. But he was younger then, and that's a mistake a lot of coaches make (Calipari, anyone?); other than that, I think he was pretty solid. Give him a couple of years suceeding at a mid-major, and who knows what would happen in 2009...

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll neg-rep myself for going off-topic :P

[TheCat]

Well if you don't think the pressure is mounting on Ben then you don't read the LA or Orange Co. papers. The next two years will be the critical ones. Less then 3rd in the conference an a NCAA bid will be bad for Ben this year. I think that he knows this and he loaded up with cupcakes to make sure he had a good record. Ben has got 3 years at least ahead of him before there is serious talk but the papers are already changing expectations here.

If you don't think expectations are high for any UCLA coach then I suggest you look at the records of some of the coaches you fired. Pay particular attention to the ones right after Wooden......history has a way of repeating itself. There is nothing worse then raising the hopes of fans and then having a letdown. Our own Dick Tomey is a perfect example. Dick really lost his job after the Penn St. game but it took 3 yrs to fire him.

[Flipper]

So those aren't unrealistic expectations?


CONTENDING is not unrealistic. WINNING would be.:)

[Mustache Man]

So let me get this straight: UCLA fans will be happy if in the next three years, Howland is "contending" for Pac-10 titles by finishing, say, in the top-4 of the conference each year (but not actually winning any titles), and "contending" for deep tourney runs by getting favorable (1-6) seeds in the NCAA tourney (but not actually making any deep tourney runs (i.e., never advancing past the Sweet 16)?

[11Banners]

Where are you Officer Craig?

[MrBug708]

So those aren't unrealistic expectations?

Not for a team that has the recruiting ability and talent that UCLA has.

[MrBug708]

Well if you don't think the pressure is mounting on Ben then you don't read the LA or Orange Co. papers. The next two years will be the critical ones. Less then 3rd in the conference an a NCAA bid will be bad for Ben this year. I think that he knows this and he loaded up with cupcakes to make sure he had a good record. Ben has got 3 years at least ahead of him before there is serious talk but the papers are already changing expectations here.

If you don't think expectations are high for any UCLA coach then I suggest you look at the records of some of the coaches you fired. Pay particular attention to the ones right after Wooden......history has a way of repeating itself. There is nothing worse then raising the hopes of fans and then having a letdown. Our own Dick Tomey is a perfect example. Dick really lost his job after the Penn St. game but it took 3 yrs to fire him.

If history is bound to repeat itself, we are due for a few NC titles here.

[Mustache Man]

Not for a team that has the recruiting ability and talent that UCLA has.

Don't forget the elite-level coach that will win multiple conference championships and national titles. :rolleyes:

[TheCat]

Mr. Bugs,

From today's bruinzone:

"If Dorrell can get the football program into the elite in 3 years, Howland better do it as well or he'll have 1 foot out the door... "

Expectations anyone??????

[TheCat]

and another one my friend Mr. Bugs......from bruinzone.

"There can be no excuse for mediocrity like last year that was an #11 seed flameout to a pos that is Texas Tech"

Ben is feeling the heat.....

[TheCat]

Mr Bugs,

If you want those titles you need Wooden back and to change the tourney to 16 teams......

[TucsonDon]

People at UCLA expect to win.

UCLA should have one of the best basketball programs in the country year in and year out.

A basketball coach at UCLA will feel more pressure than probably any other college coach in America.

Why are we still talking about this?

Howland needs to win, everyone knows that, he knows that, the alumni, the chancellor, the A.D know that. If he doesn't win then he'll be fired, and its not more complex than that. Why are we still talking about this? The Red Sox won the world series, the Cold War's over, Challenger exploded, Agnew resigned over income tax fraud, Miranda vs. Arizona, Cuban Missile Crisis, McCarthy hearings, the Korean War, NATO's established, Germany invades Poland, FDR re-elected, Lindbergh goes across the pond, Warren Harding dies in office, Spanish-American War, Statue of Liberty erected, Garfield is shot, Custer comes in 2nd, Chicago's on fire, North 1 South 0, wait, wait...There's Gold In California!!!!, Texas is part of American now, they built a railroad, we bought Alaska, there's tea in the harbor, I think the Mayflower's coming...

[11Banners]

and another one my friend Mr. Bugs......from bruinzone.

"There can be no excuse for mediocrity like last year that was an #11 seed flameout to a pos that is Texas Tech"

Ben is feeling the heat.....

Extremely lame. I can create a sock puppet here and make Stoops look like he's on the hot seat. Basically, there are trOJans and even some so-called Bruins, particularly this idiot (STANS) who hate Howland because his boy Pitino/Mark Few were not hired.

Howland isn't on any hot seat. Get over it and focus on your team.

[MrBug708]

Mr. Bugs,

From today's bruinzone:

"If Dorrell can get the football program into the elite in 3 years, Howland better do it as well or he'll have 1 foot out the door... "

Expectations anyone??????

Damn. I guess we should make exceptions the rule. I mean, when the UCLA AD put out their annual expectations in a press release, Dan Guererro stated that Howland has one year to win a title or he's gone. Better get moving Ben!

:rolleyes:

[ByJoveByJingle]

Weren't you guys supposed to win it next year? :)

[TheCat]

Listen UCLA fans,

I live in So. Cal. I'm not getting this from the message boards only. You want me to quote the papers about expectations at UCLA. I didn't create the sock puppets, they are UCLA fans (although sock puppet is a good description) I didn't say Ben's job was in jepordy, I said if he doesn't take 3rd in the PAC this year there will be rumblings. Do you expect worse then third????? Why don't you tell me what your expectations are of St. Ben???

[TucsonDon]

If UCLA doesn't finish in the top three in the Pac-10 this season, Howland will be in trouble.

Happy?

UCLA will finish in the top three, so why don't you come back after the season and make a statement then.

[Flipper]

Listen UCLA fans,

I live in So. Cal. I'm not getting this from the message boards only. You want me to quote the papers about expectations at UCLA. I didn't create the sock puppets, they are UCLA fans (although sock puppet is a good description) I didn't say Ben's job was in jepordy, I said if he doesn't take 3rd in the PAC this year there will be rumblings. Do you expect worse then third????? Why don't you tell me what your expectations are of St. Ben???


OK, Howland's second year got us a tie for 3rd in the PAC, along with Furd.

We fully expect to improve on that this season. We might not win the PAC t, but we'll definitely contend. We also expect some improvements over the first round loss (11th seed) in the tourney.

After this season, and if all the sophs become juniors, then we expect UCLA to FINALLY be in position to batte for the PAC title, since, well, since Lavin was a rookie head coach.

Looking at the Bruin roster, it doesn't take too much of a leap for faith for the Bruins to be that tough in Howland's 4th season. If you feel otherwise, then make an argument, discussing the players and overall team makeup.

[TheCat]

Sure Tucson Don....whatever you say.

[TheCat]

I think expecting an improvement over 3rd is a giant expectation. Remember the team you tied with lost their best player. My expectation is for Stanford to win the conference. They have the most experience, the best point guard, and arguebly the best wing until he was injured last year. I think UCLA on the other hand, losts it's go to guy and leading scorer and rebounder and has some near term injury issues that will hamper some team chemistry and development. I think these same issues face Arizona. I also think Az new offense will take some time to jell and that is why I don't think they will win the PAC. I do think Az. has the best depth and I think our so. are as good as yours but didn't get the playing time. Washington is a wildcard because of all they lost but they have great recruits coming in and a few good players returning. I think it will be between Az and WA. for second in the PAC.

[MrBug708]

Of course, last year people thought that Howland wouldn't have anyone to step up for him and Dijon stepped up for us pretty big. Im sure someone will provide the leadership we need this year.

[barringer97]

Howland needs to sign Kevin Love. This is a must-get recruit who is being coached by Sven Nater and has a John Wooden Pyramid of Success poster on his wall.


Howland isn't on any hot seat.


Must-get recruits already?

Sounds like he's on someone's hot seat....

[MrBug708]

Must-get recruits already?

Sounds like he's on someone's hot seat....

We need a post. Kevin Love is one of the best post players in his class.

[Mustache Man]

We need a post. Kevin Love is one of the best post players in his class.

And you are UCLA, and UCLA gets all the best recruits! Yay!

[TheCat]

Except if they can't cut it academically.....then they go to Stanford.....

[Batpig]

Don't forget the elite-level coach that will win multiple conference championships and national titles. :rolleyes:

Conference championships yes, national titles no. Lute has never won one when he should have. The only time he did, the team got hot going into the tournament and played out of their mind. While they were a very good team, they were not favorites by any stretch. Anyway, you have no business referring to National Titles in plural, especially with respect to the future. Considering UA and Lute have one total title, saying he will many "TITLES" plural is reaching.

[Mustache Man]

Conference championships yes, national titles no. Lute has never won one when he should have. The only time he did, the team got hot going into the tournament and played out of their mind. While they were a very good team, they were not favorites by any stretch. Anyway, you have no business referring to National Titles in plural, especially with respect to the future. Considering UA and Lute have one total title, saying he will many "TITLES" plural is reaching.

What does Arizona have to do with UCLA fans' expectations of their program?

BTW, I was referring to Howland (sarcastically), but I don't think many Arizona fans are disappointed that Lute has not won multiple TITLES (plural). Instead, we look at the tremendous things he has accomplished for our program.

The sad thing is, in 20 years (not that it would ever get this far), if Howland accomplished what Lute had at Arizona (multiple conference titles, multiple Final Fours, 1 championship), UCLA fans would be calling Howland an "underachiever" for not winning more championships. :rolleyes:

[Flipper]

The sad thing is, in 20 years (not that it would ever get this far), if Howland accomplished what Lute had at Arizona (multiple conference titles, multiple Final Fours, 1 championship), UCLA fans would be calling Howland an "underachiever" for not winning more championships. :rolleyes:


Well, if he's able to add 1 banner to the 11 already hanging at Pauley over a 20 year career, wouldn't that be considered underachieving?

If you guys are perfectly happy with the LONE title, WITH all the talent that passed through McKale, then good for you guys.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Well, if he's able to add 1 banner to the 11 already hanging at Pauley over a 20 year career, wouldn't that be considered underachieving?

If you guys are perfectly happy with the LONE title, WITH all the talent that passed through McKale, then good for you guys.
No it wouldn't be underachieving, you are high if you think Howland will equal Olson's success--and even worse, that you would consider it underachieving.

. . . and you need help, anyway, if you think you are going to rack up a couple more in the next 20 years.

[coeagle]

Howland seems to be repairing the program after Lavin, really thats all that needs to be said! Sure, as an Arizona fan I dislike UCLA, but he really does seem to be taking the progam in the right direction....at least it seems that way in this cat fans eyes and I think thats a good thing for competition and the pac 10.

[11Banners]

No it wouldn't be underachieving, you are high if you think Howland will equal Olson's success--and even worse, that you would consider it underachieving.

. . . and you need help, anyway, if you think you are going to rack up a couple more in the next 20 years.

Why does he need help if he believes UCLA could win 2 titles in 20 years? If we win one in the next 9 years, we'll have 2 in a 20 year span.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Why does he need help if he believes UCLA could win 2 titles in 20 years? If we win one in the next 9 years, we'll have 2 in a 20 year span.
Why? Because you have not shown yet to be a threat to win a Pac-10 championship, let alone a National championship. You need to be an Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, UConn before you can start speculating about how many you are going to win. And, frankly, 11 banners aside, your program isn't up to snuff.

What will happen in the future? I don't know. I just know that what Arizona has done over the last 20 years has been nothing short of spectacular and it chaps my hide to have a fan of a middling Pac-10 program come over here and piss all over those accomplishments.

[11Banners]

Why? Because you have not shown yet to be a threat to win a Pac-10 championship, let alone a National championship. You need to be an Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, UConn before you can start speculating about how many you are going to win. And, frankly, 11 banners aside, your program isn't up to snuff.

What will happen in the future? I don't know. I just know that what Arizona has done over the last 20 years has been nothing short of spectacular and it chaps my hide to have a fan of a middling Pac-10 program come over here and piss all over those accomplishments.

Nothing short of spectacular? Buddy, as much as I respect Arizona and love how you've helped the conference's perception, you only have one title. Something short of spectacular would be 3 or 4 titles within that timeframe. Before you add yourself to the company of Duke, UK, and Uconn, you might want to have more than one banner before you start telling the school with 11 championships how to perceive ourselves. We'll keep the high expectations and we'll see if we can put up another banner in pauley in the next 9 years.

[Mustache Man]

Nothing short of spectacular? Buddy, as much as I respect Arizona and love how you've helped the conference's perception, you only have one title. Something short of spectacular would be 3 or 4 titles within that timeframe. Before you add yourself to the company of Duke, UK, and Uconn, you might want to have more than one banner before you start telling the school with 11 championships how to perceive ourselves. We'll keep the high expectations and we'll see if we can put up another banner in pauley in the next 9 years.

Hey 11Banners,

How many titles has UCLA won since the tournament was expanded to 64 teams and high seeds stopped playing tourney games at home?

[haji81872]

Yep, that was the only reason they won national championships. Serioulsy this whole discussion on both ends is getting silly. Can't we prop one school up without necessarily bringing the other one down. And what the hell is this doing over in this forum anyway? It should have been moved a long time ago to the archrivals forum where it could die the slow death it deserves.

One thing you need to understand about Holwand. The only pressure he feels is what he puts on himself. Anything else makes no difference to him. I know if he starts not meeting his own expectations he will be harder on himself then anyone else.

UCLA will have good years and bad. In the good years people will praise him, in the bad people will villify him. I don't see how that is any different then any other school. Let's just see how it all plays out this year before we starting making predictions over the next twenty. Really this year's team and recruiting class will make a large determination on the future years of the Ben's programs direction.

[Intermezzo]

Hey 11Banners,

How many titles has UCLA won since the tournament was expanded to 64 teams and high seeds stopped playing tourney games at home?

If it were still the same old format, UA would have ZERO titles.

[barringer97]

If it were still the same old format, UA would have ZERO titles.


And why is that?

[Intermezzo]

And why is that?

I tried to edit my post, but my connection has been spotty this morning. I wanted to change it to say, UA could have zero titles (5th place in the pac wouldn't have gotten an invitation) or they could have 2 or 3 or maybe more. Just trying to point out to Mustache the irrelevance of his hypothetical question.

I'm with haji, this whole discussion is getting silly. UA's at the top of the pac and will continue to be as long as Lute is coach, and UCLA is still rebuilding. While Bruin fans are very optimistic about Howland, I'm sure he'll be the first to tell you that UCLA still has a ways to go.

[Mustache Man]

It wasn't a hypothetical question, it was an actual question:

How many of UCLA's 11 titles have they won since the tournament expanded to 64 teams, and eliminated home games for high seeds?

[bhanson]

It wasn't a hypothetical question, it was an actual question:

How many of UCLA's 11 titles have they won since the tournament expanded to 64 teams, and eliminated home games for high seeds?*

* - for all teams not named Duke

How many national championships have UCLA won in your lifetime?

[Mustache Man]

Hey, USF was a powerhouse in the 50s - they won back-to-back titles in 1955 and 1956. When are they going to return to prominence?

BTW, the answer to my question is 1 title...UCLA has one title in the last 30 years.

[TucsonDon]

I left this thread a day ago saying it wasn't a real topic, and yet there continues to be relatively meaningless discussion on it. Listen, UCLA fans, the guys over here are just chompin' at the bit to get basketball season started (for obvious reasons, let's be honest) and that's why this and probably other threads will be popping up. Let's not allow this to deteriorate into wars even before the season starts. This thread was propelled by a UCLA hater and a schmuck, to be quite frank. 'The Cat' has never had anything but negative things to say about the Bruin program, so why are you allowing him to get you worked up?

Some of the points the UCLA fans are making certainly have validity to them. The question should be asked; with so much talent, why hasn't Arizona won more championships? The answer is, its hard to win titles, even with the amount of ability Lute's had here over the years. There have been several flameouts and a couple close calls but that's how it is. I would believe that Arizona fans, while satisfied with the job Lute Olson has done here in the last twenty years, probably aren't satisfied with only one championship considering some of the players who have gone through the program. However, they are able to separate these two things, which I understand.

BJBJ makes a good point in saying that its kind of absurd for UCLA fans to come over here and question how much the Cats have underachieved, when the Bruins, with all the resources and talent they have at their disposal, have only won one title in thirty years. I guess in a way this is the fun of a message board, but this discussion didn't start off with much of a place to go but up, and yet its somehow downgraded into the same thing over and over again. Both schools have questions to answer for the last ten years, to be honest, but more importantly, both schools have questions to answer for this upcoming season. Arizona fans love to say that UCLA fans live in the past, so then why doesn't everyone just move forward?

[F Duke]

Great post and much improved avatars Tucson Don.

[TucsonDon]

Not too heavy-handed? Damn!!! Clearly my intent...oh well.

[ByJoveByJingle]

Before you add yourself to the company of Duke, UK, and Uconn, you might want to have more than one banner before you start telling the school with 11 championships how to perceive ourselves.
Well, you clearly need some help on that front. Your program is not a dominant program, and frankly has not even been a good program for awhile now. Read that again . . . it's important for you to understand.

[F Duke]

I liked the part about the post dying days ago:rolleyes:

[TopCat]

Considering that Arizona was nothing before Lute arrived, the program has been spectacular over the last 20 years. Yes, only one title, but 4 final fours, 7 elite 8s, a clear majority of Pac-10 titles, the longest NCAA tourney streak in the nation, a plethora of guys to the NBA...

To me that's pretty spectacular. If not for a couple of preseason polls, we would have been in the top-25 for about 10 years continuously. AZ is always hovering right around the top of winning percentages in Div-1 since Lute took over.

Sure, a couple more NCs would be nice, but I'm extremely satisfied with the program.

[Batpig]

This thread IS completely ridiculous, but keep in mind it was started by a Zona fan. If You guys have such a problem with all the UCLA threads over here, then stop starting them. The thread then evolved into a pissing contest. Here is the issue, Zona has been the best in the conference for 20 years. Both schools have the same number of titles during that span, so UCLA isn't THAT much behind. We had a total zero of a coach for 6 years and that period of time allowed Zona to surge ahead (coincidence that you won your first title during that period, I think not). All that being said, when people like ByJove say things like he gets pissed when fans of middling programs come over here and question Zona'a accomplishments, that's fine, I can understand that. Zona is a nice program with A LOT to be proud of. The bottom line though is that UCLA is not a middling a program, it is a program that had a bump in the road due to Lavin.

ByJove, there is something that YOU need to understand. Zona is a good program. Maybe top 5 in the country right now. BUT, and this is a big but, it will NEVER be UCLA. PERIOD. UCLA is in the pantheon of great programs, Arizona is not. You guys need to win a minimum of 3 titles in the next 20 years to even begin to talk about yourselves in the same breath as UCLA, and that assumes that UCLA doesn't win any. So while you are entitled to be proud of what is an excellent program, you have no business looking down your nose at UCLA, which is clearly the superior program.

[ByJoveByJingle]

ByJove, there is something that YOU need to understand. Zona is a good program. Maybe top 5 in the country right now. BUT, and this is a big but, it will NEVER be UCLA. PERIOD. UCLA is in the pantheon of great programs, Arizona is not. You guys need to win a minimum of 3 titles in the next 20 years to even begin to talk about yourselves in the same breath as UCLA, and that assumes that UCLA doesn't win any. So while you are entitled to be proud of what is an excellent program, you have no business looking down your nose at UCLA, which is clearly the superior program.

UCLA has the most dominant history in college basketball . . . and over 90% of that history happened under one man, during one stretch of time--a stretch that ended 30+ years ago. Arizona has been the best program West of Lawrence, Kansas, all under one man, during one stretch of time--a stretch of time that will continue for the foreseeable future. Feel free to continue to think that the success of John Wooden is relevant to anything going on today--or in the minds of recruits who have been alive for half of the time since John Wooden last coached a game in Pauley.

You have a lot of recruiting advantages going for you--John Wooden is not really much of one. Any recruit who goes to UCLA because of what John Wooden did there is as big a fool as a recruit who goes to San Francisco because of what Bill Russell did there.

So if it isn't that, then please let me know what is the relevance of your 60's and 70's dynasty? I'd like to care . . . please tell me why I should.

And as far as your first point? Please, I hope to God Arizona doesn't become UCLA. That is a fate I'd not wish on any program.

Somebody made an analogy between UCLA and the French--I'm starting to see the point. The French continue to have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council on the basis of being a world power 100 years ago and because they whine alot.

[11Banners]

UCLA has the most dominant history in college basketball . . . and over 90% of that history happened under one man, during one stretch of time--a stretch that ended 30+ years ago. Arizona has been the best program West of Lawrence, Kansas, all under one man, during one stretch of time--a stretch of time that will continue for the foreseeable future. Feel free to continue to think that the success of John Wooden is relevant to anything going on today--or in the minds of recruits who have been alive for half of the time since John Wooden last coached a game in Pauley.

You have a lot of recruiting advantages going for you--John Wooden is not really much of one. Any recruit who goes to UCLA because of what John Wooden did there is as big a fool as a recruit who goes to San Francisco because of what Bill Russell did there.

So if it isn't that, then please let me know what is the relevance of your 60's and 70's dynasty? I'd like to care . . . please tell me why I should.

And as far as your first point? Please, I hope to God Arizona doesn't become UCLA. That is a fate I'd not wish on any program.

Somebody made an analogy between UCLA and the French--I'm starting to see the point. The French continue to have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council on the basis of being a world power 100 years ago and because they whine alot.

Past 20 years:

UCLA 1 title
Arizona 1 title

And the French analogy said something that UCLA FOOTBALL and Basketball are similar to the French. I find that funny coming from an Arizona fan when our football team is currently 7-0. If our football program is France, yours must be Sierra Leone.

[barringer97]

Past 20 years:

UCLA 1 title
Arizona 1 title

And the French analogy said something that UCLA FOOTBALL and Basketball are similar to the French. I find that funny coming from an Arizona fan when our football team is currently 7-0. If our football program is France, yours must be Sierra Leone.

Was UCLA ever a football 'power'?

[haji81872]

If I was an Arizona fan, I certainly would not want to bring football into this conversation.

But for your question, it depends on your definition and your time frame. I am sure we could spin it we are, I am sure you could spin it were not.

[TopCat]

Past 20 years:

UCLA 1 title
Arizona 1 title
I get that this is the UCLA axiom. We only hang NC banners. That's the definition of a successful season.

So by UCLA standards, you've had one season in 30 years of completely forgetable basketball?


Final Fours, Pac-10 crowns, Maui titles, Preseason-NIT championships, Pac-10 Tourneys.... All of that is just chaff that lesser programs consider fulfilling?

We're sorry your AD made some incredibly bone headed decision to hire Lavin and keep him around for 6 years. Don't blame us for noticing that UCLA became a joke for about 4 of those 6 years. But I tend to believe the UCLA fanbase would go bezerk about now if UCLA came away with something as paltry as this year's Preseason NIT crown. You guys would be pointing to it while proclaiming the Bruin's restoration as a national power.

Well... We've been knocking those kind of accolades out for the past 20 years like kids getting candy on Halloween.

How many of those 10 Wooden titles were any of the UCLA fans here alive for? I vaguely remember a few when I was a toddler. At the current state of UCLA ball, claiming to be one of the best programs is like Italy claiming to own half the world because of the Roman empire.


But back to the original concept of this thread. Lavin not withstanding, there does seem to be a window of opportunity for UCLA coaches in the post-Wooden era. I know in one of these threads TucsonDon even commented that if Howland can't get it done soon he should be tossed and someone who can brought in. As good as Howland might be, if UCLA is the power many describe it as, why even bring in an unproven guy like Howland? Couldn't the Bruins just go out and land whomever they want?

The UCLA campus sits right in the heart of the most fertile recruiting territory in the country. The weather in LA is awesome year round. The school has a penchant for academic excellence. The beach is 15 minutes away. And... The Bruins have the benchmark program for success in college basketball.

So why did UCLA even fade in the first place, and how has some 2nd rate school in the desert (with no basketball tradition at all) jumped up and become the regional power right under UCLA's nose? Hell, UCLA doesn't even bother to consider us a rival.

I think some UCLA posters need to stop for a moment and organize some perspective about the aura of UCLA.


As for me... Howland should be given at least 4 years to show what he can do. I think the jury's definitely still out on whether this guy can coach at the highest level in the country, and have the talent to hang another banner in Pauley. In this day and age NCs are an elusive animal, that even the absolute best coaches in the country have difficulty in attaining.

So perhaps UCLA fans should take some pride in a Preseason NIT crown, or get excited about contending for a Pac-10 title before gazing at the possibility of an NC. Even if Howland is the real deal, it might take him 10 years to have the fates align and allow him to bring another banner to Pauley.

[ByJoveByJingle]

If I was an Arizona fan, I certainly would not want to bring football into this conversation.

But for your question, it depends on your definition and your time frame. I am sure we could spin it we are, I am sure you could spin it were not.
If you were a UCLA student, you would display some reading comprehension and realize that a fellow named 11Banners brought football into the conversation. :cool:

[ByJoveByJingle]

Past 20 years:

UCLA 1 title
Arizona 1 title

And the French analogy said something that UCLA FOOTBALL and Basketball are similar to the French. I find that funny coming from an Arizona fan when our football team is currently 7-0. If our football program is France, yours must be Sierra Leone.

Red Herring . . . very relevant to my post. Thanks for establishing that you have no answer as to why anybody should think that your 10 Banners under John Wooden are relevant to the game of basketball played today.

[haji81872]

Your right BJBJ, my bad. You would think I was an SC grad. :)

[Auercat]

Your right BJBJ, my bad. You would think I was an SC grad. :)

If you were an SC grad, you would have celebrated major sports championships, BCS Bowl Victories and Heisman Trophies within the last decade. :smooch:

Bearing Down on Yesterday U and Its Fans Grasping At Anything They Can Right About Now :wink2:

Auercat

[Intermezzo]

Red Herring . . . very relevant to my post. Thanks for establishing that you have no answer as to why anybody should think that your 10 Banners under John Wooden are relevant to the game of basketball played today.

Of course the national titles are relevant. It is because of what Wooden accomplished that UCLA is considered a storied program with a lot of tradition.

Of course I get what you're saying though.....Wooden's titles are ancient history, but a program's history does count for something. It doesn't make a program immune to becoming an obsolete non-factor (like Bill Russell's school), but it certainly adds to a program's prestige. Whether or not you agree with this, the fact of the matter is, the media keeps bringing up Coach Wooden's accomplishments at UCLA all the time and gives him plenty of airtime every time a UCLA game is televised. That certainly does play a factor with how a program is perceived today not only by the fans but also by recruits.

I think part of the disagreement here is that you two might be arguing two different issues. UA, without a doubt, has the better basketball team right now and has owned UCLA for longer than I care to remember. Batpig's arguments seem to focus more on the (for lack of a better word) prestige of UCLA's hoops program. And just so I don't sound like a total homer, let me just add that the prestige of glory days gone by are fine and dandy, but I want to enjoy watching our team have a successful run now. Reliving the glory days of UCLA is very little consolation to me when our team loses and I'm sure most other Bruins feel the same way.

[MrBug708]

Was UCLA ever a football 'power'?

Well, our football team has as many titles as your basketball team. You decide.

[WayneNewton]

Well, our football team has as many titles as your basketball team. You decide.

1954 was fifty-one years ago, bug...

Ucla fans new motto: "We were the sh!t in basketball during Nam... Oh, yeah, and our football team won it all once during the leather helmet days."

[MrBug708]

One title is one title.

Just saying

[Mustache Man]

One title is one title.

Just saying

Is that the standard UCLA fan rationalization for why their teams are generally unable to dominate in the modern era?

[MrBug708]

To say we dont have any any football history is laughable. I wa spointing out that we have the same amount of football titles as you do basketball titles.

Bearing Down on Zona fans getting revenge

[Itamicbomb]

As UCLA's football team continues its improbable march towards a potentially historical meeting with that other SoCal school, you can bet that Coach Howland is envisioning a similar run for his 2005-06 Bruins.

Now that Bruin football is, at least for the time being, back, one can only wonder how much longer it will be before Bruin basketball follows suit. Which, for instance, is more likely to happen first: UCLA reaches the Final Four or UCLA fires Ben Howland?

Howland's grace period is long over, and the over-achieving Bruin football team is going to raise expectations even higher for men's hoops.

If Dorrell can get to a BCS bowl while playing across town from the closest thing to a dynasty in all of sports, then you better believe Bruin fans are gonna expect Howland to win the Pac-10 and advance past the first weekend of the NCAAs.

My guess is that UCLA improves, but not dramatically. Howland is a good coach, not a great one, far beneath the pantheon reserved for Krzyzewski, B Knight, R Williams, L Olson, J Boeheim, J Calhoun, T Izzo, etc.

In retrospect, this has to be one of the all-time least correct posts. Dorrell as an overachiever...that's awesome.

[Flipper]

In retrospect, this has to be one of the all-time least correct posts. Dorrell as an overachiever...that's awesome.

What about his comment on Howland not being a great coach, in his last paragraph?:)