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View Full Version : Michigan football breaking the rules


Irish27
08-30-2009, 01:07 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4431717

ice
08-30-2009, 09:17 AM
I have a feeling this rule is broken at a lot of schools, and that the only reason why this report is coming out of Michigan is because the players probably think RR is an *******.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 10:41 AM
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Side note: Michigan had the highest GPA in team history last semester.

Zona_Soccer10
08-30-2009, 01:28 PM
Imagine all the new people calling for Rich's head if once perfect Michigan gets sent to the principal's office.

BlueMikey
08-30-2009, 02:17 PM
I wonder if people from WVU will start coming out and saying the same thing now.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 02:23 PM
"I haven't read the article yet, but I also haven't heard anything about over practice, or anything like that.

"I've had three sons in college football now, and they've all gone through the same things so far. Tate has been doing the same things as his brothers were at UCLA and Stanford."

What we have here is a struggling newspaper, freshmen who haven't been instructed on how to talk to the media, and former players who couldn't hack it for Barwis.

NorCalCat
08-30-2009, 02:27 PM
What we have here is a struggling newspaper, freshmen who haven't been instructed on how to talk to the media, and former players who couldn't hack it for Barwis.

Change about 4 words around and I believe you just described Watergate.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 03:00 PM
What we have here is a struggling newspaper, freshmen who haven't been instructed on how to talk to the media, and former players who couldn't hack it for Barwis.

Every program cheats. Most of them just aren't stupid enough to piss their players off to the point that Rich Rod does and thus get themselves sold out to the paper.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 03:09 PM
Every program cheats. Most of them just aren't stupid enough to piss their players off to the point that Rich Rod does and thus get themselves sold out to the paper.

Most of the allegations aren't actually violations as long as the staff wasn't stupid.

Without the names of the guys who were complaining, it's hard to be sure, but it's more likely that it's disgruntled holdovers from Carr. There probably was a considerable increase in practice time from when Carr was coach and they had a notoriously soft S&C coach, which helps to explain why they hadn't won a notable game since beating Alabama in the Sugar Bowl.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Most of the allegations aren't actually violations as long as the staff wasn't stupid.

Without the names of the guys who were complaining, it's hard to be sure, but it's more likely that it's disgruntled holdovers from Carr. There probably was a considerable increase in practice time from when Carr was coach and they had a notoriously soft S&C coach, which helps to explain why they hadn't won a notable game since beating Alabama in the Sugar Bowl.

It's not a question of the staff being stupid. It's a question of the staff affirmatively choosing the break the rules, which it certainly sounds like they did, and which would be pretty much consistent with Dick Rod's personality.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 04:28 PM
It's not a question of the staff being stupid. It's a question of the staff affirmatively choosing the break the rules, which it certainly sounds like they did, and which would be pretty much consistent with Dick Rod's personality.

The only true violations alleged is that there were coaches present and that there were repercussions for non-attendance at the voluntary activities. The former would be stupid, and unless they were threatening scholarships over non-attendance, the NCAA isn't going to find that Michigan penalized non-attendance - there is no right to play, nor is the NCAA going to go over the depth chart and cross reference it with recruiting rankings and wonder why Player A is playing and Player B is not.

Rodriguez knows the rules and Michigan actually has a compliance department. I'm betting they know exactly what the rules permit and followed them, and threw a ton of crap under the "voluntary" category, just like everyone else.

How much time do you think your Trojans spend practicing?

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 04:35 PM
From some guy over at MGoBlog:

Now quoting the linked survey:

"Football players in the NCAA's Division I Bowl Subdivision (formerly known as Division I-A) said they spent an average of 44.8 hours a week on their sport playing games, practicing, training and in the training room compared with a little less than 40 hours on academics."

So we should in fact be able to determine exactly how far above and beyond the average Michigan footballers train under Rodriguez. According to the Freep article, Michigan footballers played in excess of the NCAA maximum (20 hours) in the following manner:

"With three hours on Saturday and a full day on Sunday, players tallied about 12 hours on those two days. They were off Monday. Players said they would spend an additional three to four hours with the team on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday afternoons, bringing the weekly total to 21- 24 hours."

Which brings the absolute total to 20 + 24 = 44 hours per week.

And the USA Today article: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2008-01-12-athletes-full-time-work-study_N.htm

BlueMikey
08-30-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm not sure what your point here is, Itam.

It's OK for one guy to break the rule because other people break the rules? For one, what's the point of any rules then, and second, that only flies as long as people aren't complaining, which they are now.

Plus, the rules are in place so that the players don't have to complain about being overworked. Those who do, as the article suggest, face severe repercussions from their institution.

Michigan's compliance department is only useful insofar as it helps them comply with the rules. If it instead turns into: how far can we bypass the rules without getting caught or in any substantial trouble, it's only useful to the coach, and not to anyone else.

UofAcat23
08-30-2009, 05:27 PM
For one, what's the point of any rules then.

Ask that to the NCAA... they're the ones who created them but selectively choose which ones to enforce.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm not sure what your point here is, Itam.

It's OK for one guy to break the rule because other people break the rules? For one, what's the point of any rules then, and second, that only flies as long as people aren't complaining, which they are now.

Plus, the rules are in place so that the players don't have to complain about being overworked. Those who do, as the article suggest, face severe repercussions from their institution.

Michigan's compliance department is only useful insofar as it helps them comply with the rules. If it instead turns into: how far can we bypass the rules without getting caught or in any substantial trouble, it's only useful to the coach, and not to anyone else.

They're not breaking the rules. If they were breaking the rules, there wouldn't be a national average of 45 hours per week. If you want to change the rules to prevent teams from actually practicing more than 20 hours a week including all the off the books stuff, that's a different conversation, but I don't think that would be worthwhile. No one on the team has complained about being overworked - the freshmen weren't complaining, and the former players have decided to let someone else pay for their classes.

BlueMikey
08-30-2009, 05:53 PM
The average doesn't set the rule though. If the article is to be believed:

The player, who asked not to be identified for fear of repercussions from fans, said in-season Sundays at the football facility lasted from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., including a one-hour lunch. That would be an 11-hour day. The NCAA daily limit is four hours, the weekly limit 20.

Let me ask you this: if the freshmen had a legitimate complaint that a school was overstepping its bounds, how many of them do you think would actually come forward? There's no way they're going to jeopardize their entire football experience.

gumby
08-30-2009, 06:18 PM
What we have here is a struggling newspaper, freshmen who haven't been instructed on how to talk to the media, and former players who couldn't hack it for Barwis.
The bolded is redundant.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 06:59 PM
ITT - Itamic pretends he knows more about Michigan's practice regime than the guys actually on the team. Typical Dukie.

By the way I love the "he'd have to be stupid to break the rules" argument. I guess no coach has ever broken NCAA rules then because to do so would have been "stupid". Who can argue with that logic.

Merkin
08-30-2009, 07:19 PM
Just another example why things really need to change in Division I football and basketball.

20 hours a week in season and 8 hours off season? These are not student athletes, these are athletes that go to class (occasionally).

But it's just win, baby win!

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 08:37 PM
ITT - Itamic pretends he knows more about Michigan's practice regime than the guys actually on the team. Typical Dukie.

By the way I love the "he'd have to be stupid to break the rules" argument. I guess no coach has ever broken NCAA rules then because to do so would have been "stupid". Who can argue with that logic.

I'm taking this all from someone who knows more than any of us about Michigan football - mgoblog is the single best website devoted to any school that I've ever seen. Pretty sure I'd just be taking a page out of your playbook if I assumed more knowledge about anything than everyone.

Breaking that particular rule - direct observation of a voluntary practice - would be particularly stupid because of the ease in detection through drop-in compliance visits.

Let me ask you this: if the freshmen had a legitimate complaint that a school was overstepping its bounds, how many of them do you think would actually come forward? There's no way they're going to jeopardize their entire football experience.

I think they would come forward anonymously to Compliance or the NCAA.

The scorched earth transfers, particularly Justin Boren and Toney Clemons, make me feel pretty confident that there's not much underhanded going on under Rodriguez. They are almost certainly working more than they did under Carr, they are definitively working less than the national average (per the survey), and almost certainly doing so through the various loopholes in counting to 20 and the other limits.

Just another example why things really need to change in Division I football and basketball.

20 hours a week in season and 8 hours off season? These are not student athletes, these are athletes that go to class (occasionally).

But it's just win, baby win!

http://mgoblog.com/content/u-m-football-teams-gpa

NorCalCat
08-30-2009, 08:50 PM
I'm taking this all from someone who knows more than any of us about Michigan football - mgoblog is the single best website devoted to any school that I've ever seen. Pretty sure I'd just be taking a page out of your playbook if I assumed more knowledge about anything than everyone.

Breaking that particular rule - direct observation of a voluntary practice - would be particularly stupid because of the ease in detection through drop-in compliance visits.



I think they would come forward anonymously to Compliance or the NCAA.

The scorched earth transfers, particularly Justin Boren and Toney Clemons, make me feel pretty confident that there's not much underhanded going on under Rodriguez. They are almost certainly working more than they did under Carr, they are definitively working less than the national average (per the survey), and almost certainly doing so through the various loopholes in counting to 20 and the other limits.



http://mgoblog.com/content/u-m-football-teams-gpa

Amazing that a "lazy" guy like Boren who couldn't hack the Barwis system was able to land a starting job at OSU. He's widely regarded as the best lineman this year. It must be like a country club there.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 08:54 PM
Amazing that a "lazy" guy like Boren who couldn't hack the Barwis system was able to land a starting job at OSU. He's widely regarded as the best lineman this year. It must be like a country club there.

Must have been the family values

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/theworldofisaac/Chicks/justinboren-1.jpg

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm taking this all from someone who knows more than any of us about Michigan football - mgoblog is the single best website devoted to any school that I've ever seen. Pretty sure I'd just be taking a page out of your playbook if I assumed more knowledge about anything than everyone.


I do know more about the financial markets and legal issues I typically post on than anyone else on here. That's my job. You're not a Michigan football coach or player, you don't know **** about how the program really operates.



Breaking that particular rule - direct observation of a voluntary practice - would be particularly stupid because of the ease in detection through drop-in compliance visits.


Assumes facts not in evidence regarding a lack of complicity by the compliance office.

Sure seems to be an ever increasing number of people who are just out to get Dick Rod. I actually hope he survives because there's a lot of mediocre football in Michigan's future with him, which will quickly rid us of all of you unaffiliated obnoxious bandwagon Michigan fans.

NorCalCat
08-30-2009, 09:00 PM
Must have been the family values

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn202/theworldofisaac/Chicks/justinboren-1.jpg

Damn, you mean he likes pretty girls?

You're kinda like the Percy of Michigan Football (minus the pee). All these disgruntled transfers trumping up a conspiracy against poor Rich.....too sad.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 09:03 PM
I do know more about the financial markets and legal issues I typically post on than anyone else on here. That's my job. You're not a Michigan football coach or player, you don't know **** about how the program really operates.

Assumes facts not in evidence regarding a lack of complicity by the compliance office.

Sure seems to be an ever increasing number of people who are just out to get Dick Rod. I actually hope he survives because there's a lot of mediocre football in Michigan's future with him.

I wasn't talking about the financial markets, I'm talking about...well, everything. None of the information I'm posting on Michigan's football practices is firsthand, but it comes from people who do know; the Michigan equivalent of Gershon and comments from players and their families.

There aren't an increasing number of people out to get Rodriguez. There are exactly three players (Boren, Clemens, Wermers) who left the programs on unusually bad terms, a number that when added to the two freshmen this guy talked to, magically arrives at the number of "sources" consulted by the Free Press. The writer at the Free Press has a pretty distinguished record of slinging **** at Rodriguez, as well.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 09:07 PM
I wasn't talking about the financial markets, I'm talking about...well, everything. None of the information I'm posting on Michigan's football practices is firsthand, but it comes from people who do know; the Michigan equivalent of Gershon and comments from players and their families.

There aren't an increasing number of people out to get Rodriguez. There are exactly three players (Boren, Clemens, Wermers) who left the programs on unusually bad terms, a number that when added to the two freshmen this guy talked to, magically arrives at the number of "sources" consulted by the Free Press. The writer at the Free Press has a pretty distinguished record of slinging **** at Rodriguez, as well.

Funny that the Free Press article reports more than just 3 former players. But, again, you know everything (and, of course, failed to show instances of my purported to act in like manner on anything outside of my field).
Local websites never underreport violations by the school they cover, right?

Get the **** over yourself. I'm sorry you'll have to find a new school to root for, but that's what good little bandwagoners do. Think of it as practice for your search for a new basketball school as Duke continues to fade away.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 09:09 PM
Funny that the Free Press article reports more than just 3 former players. But, again, you know everything (and, of course, failed to show instances of my purported to act in like manner on anything outside of my field).
Local websites never underreport violations by the school they cover, right?

Get the **** over yourself. I'm sorry you'll have to find a new school to root for, but that's what good little bandwagoners do. Think of it as practice for your search for a new basketball school as Duke continues to fade away.

...says the USC football fan.

Six current or former players = the two freshmen named + Terrance Taylor (also named) + 3.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 09:11 PM
...says the USC football fan.

Six current or former players = the two freshmen named + Terrance Taylor (also named) + 3.

So you were wrong above about it being just those three former players. At least keep your story straight.
So now we're including freshman out to get Rich Rod, eh? But you're also claiming that you're not positing that there's a growing group out to get him. Please make up your mind and get back to us when you have settled on an excuse.

My being a USC football fan is certainly news to me.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 09:15 PM
So you were wrong above about it being just those three former players. At least keep your story straight.

My being a USC football fan is certainly news to me.

Yeah, I forgot about Terrance Taylor in that other post...totally makes everything else wrong.

The freshmen aren't out to get Rodriguez; the article states that they weren't complaining. They are unaware of what counts and doesn't count towards 20 hours.

LegallyKenny
08-30-2009, 09:19 PM
Yeah, I forgot about Terrance Taylor in that other post...totally makes everything else wrong.

The freshmen aren't out to get Rodriguez; the article states that they weren't complaining. They are unaware of what counts and doesn't count towards 20 hours.

Lulz. Now you're telling us what people you've never met were thinking? Who do you think you are, Immel?

Get used to this. A lot of people respected Michigan's program even if they didn't particularly like Michigan. That evaporated and Michigan lost the benefit of the doubt in people's minds when they brought in that overrated prick of a coach.

Itamicbomb
08-30-2009, 09:20 PM
Lulz. Now you're telling us what people you've never met were thinking? Who do you think you are, Immel?

The article states that the players were not complaining and unaware of the rules. I guess they could be out to get Rodriguez, but then they probably would have been complaining.

Intermezzo
08-31-2009, 11:36 AM
I do know more about the financial markets and legal issues I typically post on than anyone else on here. That's my job.

LOL, Itamic may have been wrong about you being an 'SC fan, but you sure do sound like one.

Jason Scheer
08-31-2009, 11:48 AM
He's crying...he's seriously crying