Defense; UA, P12, UM

[Winger]

Originally Posted by Gladiator Cat

We had a "bend-but-don't-break" type of defense that has been bent and broken more often than not and appropriately ranked in the lower percentile nationally as you might suspect.

Always felt this angle was kind of over played by folks here.

Bend dont break from fans has always felt like I feel watching Arizona rebound during a game ... after the game I always think we got out rebounded by 10 and had 0 offensive rebounds ... and then I look at the box score to find out we out rebounded the opposition on both sides of the floor.

Arizona's Total Defensive Ranks

2010 32
2009 25
2008 24

Seems like memories are short, as those numbers are in the top quartile, and were put up in the P10, which is pretty much an offense-dominated league.

[kylecollins]

Originally Posted by Winger

Always felt this angle was kind of over played by folks here.

Bend dont break from fans has always felt like I feel watching Arizona rebound during a game ... after the game I always think we got out rebounded by 10 and had 0 offensive rebounds ... and then I look at the box score to find out we out rebounded the opposition on both sides of the floor.

Arizona's Total Defensive Ranks

2010 32
2009 25
2008 24

Seems like memories are short, as those numbers are in the top quartile, and were put up in the P10, which is pretty much an offense-dominated league.

Nothing before Nov. 6, 2010 counts when discussing Stoops teams

[UMforever]

UM used to use the bend don't break defense under LLoyd Carr. Same results as here. Anyone remember the Colorado Hail mary?? or the appalacian state game? Prime examples of why that defense is stupid imho.

[Gladiator Cat]

UMforever,

How ironic that you would bring up a Colorado team from back in the day. Back when they beat you guys at UM you folks were atleast playing a respectable program in CU.

Last year we went into Buffalo country to play one of the worst teams in the nation and as you might expect made their QB look like an 1st Team AA. They ran us up and down the field so bad it was almost as if we were a D-II school.

You want to talk about hitting rock bottom. Anyone with a pulse knew that after that game this team was DOA (dead on arrivial).

Last year was one of the most painful ever because anyone with a brain cell to use knew the shoe was about to drop and it would be painful.

But I digress, it was all RichRod's fault according to some.

[Martavious22]

Originally Posted by Gladiator Cat

Martavious22, would you be kind enough to elaborate on the 3-4 years of low talent comment.

I assume you are referring to players already holding scholies? And not future recruiting classes.

Originally Posted by Reydituto

Offensive talent is there to score a lot of points. Need to find a QB after this season.

Defensive personnel will be "low" for 2 seasons tops. 3 RR/Casteel recruiting classes, plus the FR/RS FR/SO from Stoops' last two classes who will have had time to retrain and relearn, and UA should have enough ammunition to execute the scheme like the coaches want. Whether the scheme in general fares well against Pac-12 offenses remains to be seen.

This last class will help, but it was honestly pretty underwhelming. In two years, we'll have some defensive players who are juniors (this last class, but still underwhelming) and true sophomores.

2012 class ranking (per scout): 46
2011: 70
2010: 39

So the 39th and 70th ranked classes will be juniors and seniors in two years, and these players were not recruiting for the scheme. This means two things and neither are good: attrition and misuse of talent. While I'm not going to predict doom and gloom, I don't think that personnel (even with a slight schematic advantage) can make the Rose Bowl in two years. They're probably going to be middling.

RR cited (and this is a knock on him) talent as a problem at Michigan even though Michigan did not have a class that missed the top 20 (as far as I know) in any year. The talent problem was a real criticism: OL and QB depth was abysmal. RR recruited a lot of skilled offensive players but did not have the same success defensively. The defense basically went from ranking 54th in his first year to 100+ in his last. It went from competent to horrible, and RR cited defensive talent as the problem. Remember, he was bringing in top 20 classes. Compared to Michigan, RR is working with a much lower level of talent. He might not come out and admit this, but it's obvious that he's thinking that, especially based on some of his commentary pertaining to talent in 3 and out. This is the top reason when I am predicting a 3-4 window for success rather than 2-3. In fact, I think 4-5 will be much better. While Arizona may have some stars emerge defensively, this conclusion is only logical.

[chiefzona1472]

Originally Posted by Gladiator Cat

UMforever,

I know you were asking Rey, but if you were to ask 50 people on this board that same question you'll probably get 50 different answers.

Our teams in general have not been good against quality power running teams nor very good against teams that utilize fast high quality receivers or mobile QB's.

We had a "bend-but-don't-break" type of defense that has been bent and broken more often than not and appropriately ranked in the lower percentile nationally as you might suspect. More opposing players have been made AA when playing against our defense than any other team I know. I'm talking huge career days.

To put it in simple to understand terms, if you were to take the top three teams of USC, Oregon and Stanford over the last few years, not one of our Arizona starter's.........outside of maybe Juron Criner would make the starting depth chart of either of those other school's.

Make no mistake, we have a few nice players but in general this team is WAY DOWN on talent and depth. Rich Rod and Jeff Casteel have their work cut out for them for sure.

Very nice post. I made about the same comment last offseason and was nearly blasted off of the board by the Stoops' supporters. A lot of football people feel the same and though the cupboard isn't bare...talent-wise it is dismal.

[Reydituto]

Originally Posted by Martavious22

This last class will help, but it was honestly pretty underwhelming. In two years, we'll have some defensive players who are juniors (this last class, but still underwhelming) and true sophomores.

2012 class ranking (per scout): 46
2011: 70
2010: 39

So the 39th and 70th ranked classes will be juniors and seniors in two years, and these players were not recruiting for the scheme. This means two things and neither are good: attrition and misuse of talent. While I'm not going to predict doom and gloom, I don't think that personnel (even with a slight schematic advantage) can make the Rose Bowl in two years. They're probably going to be middling.

RR cited (and this is a knock on him) talent as a problem at Michigan even though Michigan did not have a class that missed the top 20 (as far as I know) in any year. The talent problem was a real criticism: OL and QB depth was abysmal. RR recruited a lot of skilled offensive players but did not have the same success defensively. The defense basically went from ranking 54th in his first year to 100+ in his last. It went from competent to horrible, and RR cited defensive talent as the problem. Remember, he was bringing in top 20 classes. Compared to Michigan, RR is working with a much lower level of talent. He might not come out and admit this, but it's obvious that he's thinking that, especially based on some of his commentary pertaining to talent in 3 and out. This is the top reason when I am predicting a 3-4 window for success rather than 2-3. In fact, I think 4-5 will be much better. While Arizona may have some stars emerge defensively, this conclusion is only logical.

Most on this board won't want to wait 4-5 years for success. I don't think it takes that long though.

I agree the cupboard is deficient, especially for the 3-3-5, but I don't think it's bare or dismal. Stoops' last two recruiting classes have some athleticism on the defensive side (even if not enough speed), and haven't played/trained so much for the prior scheme that they can't adjust over the next two-plus years.

By the time those kids are RSJR/SR/RSSR, they'll be more "RR" players than "Stoops" players. Specifically by year 3, guys like Tra'Mayne Bondurant, Rob Hankins, Hank Hobson, Dame Ndiaye, Reggie Gilbert, Jonathan McKnight, Kirifi Taula, and Dan Pettinato should all be starters or veteran contributors on the two-deep, and that's not counting the two Mormon missionaries who I hope return (Fanene and Fuimaono) or the suspended Jourdan Grandon, all of whom have ability. The last class has 6-8 guys who could play in the secondary, as well as 3 DL and 2 more LB recruited to this scheme, all of whom will be either RSSOs or JRs by then. Two more classes of filling in with talent and the 2014 season shouldn't be as "low" as some think.

If Matt Scott and Kadeem Carey are as good as I think they are, with 8 home games UA has a chance to be fair-to-middlin' this season with a chance at a bowl. It's the next season that should be the low spot on the growth/development/talent curve and then an upward trajectory starting in Season 3 as I suggest above.

[AZ2ATX]

Originally Posted by Gladiator Cat

UMforever,

How ironic that you would bring up a Colorado team from back in the day. Back when they beat you guys at UM you folks were atleast playing a respectable program in CU.

Last year we went into Buffalo country to play one of the worst teams in the nation and as you might expect made their QB look like an 1st Team AA. They ran us up and down the field so bad it was almost as if we were a D-II school.

You want to talk about hitting rock bottom. Anyone with a pulse knew that after that game this team was DOA (dead on arrivial).

Last year was one of the most painful ever because anyone with a brain cell to use knew the shoe was about to drop and it would be painful.

But I digress, it was all RichRod's fault according to some.

The fact that we beat ASU after that Colorado game speaks wonders for how DOA that program was.

[Gladiator Cat]

Originally Posted by chiefzona1472

Very nice post. I made about the same comment last offseason and was nearly blasted off of the board by the Stoops' supporters. A lot of football people feel the same and though the cupboard isn't bare...talent-wise it is dismal.

Hey Chief,

I've been as guilty as anyone in getting a bit overly optimistic in the past. As I've gotten older all the BS and koolaid beverages that I used to consume in mass quantities just collects dust now.

I'm a reality based prognosticator with little patients for bravado and testosterone lased beliefs.....the pom pom, firecrackers and group think is best left to the more deranged element of our fan base.

I have no illusions whatsoever that RR & company will turn this thing around fast. Quite the contrary, I think it will take a good 4 year's to reach a very good 9 win season and achieve a bigger bowl type game.

As for me, the Rose Bowl BS hype can be fed to someone else because I'm not interested in meaningless BS or useless dialog on the subject matter. If and when it appears the UofA has assembled a team good enough to make the RB we won't need to convince ourselves or anyone else of that fact, the on-field play will tell the story.

So where are we now, call it the feedback loop theory or the come full circle dichotomy.

My love for the Cats started back in the Jim Young era.

1. Jim Young, excellent coach and a winner before leaving for Purdue.
-- Much love for Jim Young.

2. Tony Mason, a used car salesman from the get-go and a low level hire from Cincinnati. Very nice man, but way out of his league. Resulted in NCAA sanctions and penalties. Tony RIP.

3. Larry Smith, somewhat unknown from Tulane but a winner and continued his winning way's at Arizona. Won many huge games and also lost a lot as well. All in all, a great man and coach that took a chance on USC stardom that never materialized.
-- Larry was hated at first when leaving for USC but later returned to Tucson to live out his days in the Old Pueblo. I later understood his desire to reach the pinnacle of coaching as that is mans destiny to reach for the stars. I gained a new respect for him as time went on. He died being remembered as a great Arizona Wildcat coach as he should have been. Larry RIP.

4. Dick Tomey, coach Tomey is the most loved football coach at the UofA of all time in the modern era and I don't think it's even close. Coach Tomey had us so close to the grand prize so many time's that it is almost is too painful to realize how close we came. His 12-1 record and final AP raking of # 4 nationally stands as our greatest achievement to date.

-- In the end, at the twilight of his grand career here at the UofA it was so painful to see him step aside but he had lost his magic touch for whatever reason and recruiting had taken a huge slide to the downside. As much as we all loved the man and his contributions to the school, it was time for a change.

-- Coach Tomey is still the benchmark of integrity, honesty, leadership and mentorship.

5. John Machovic, on paper a very solid hire but everything else after that was pure hell. In reality a magnificent boondoggle of epic proportions. In all fairness, no one could have seen how bad of a hire Wackovic was.

-- Jim Livengood did not deserve what happened to him as a result of that cluster**** of a hire. But life is what it is and Jim eventually took the hit, and we moved on.

6. Mike Stoops, the young defensive savant from the mighty Oklahoma Sooners. Mike was a brash, vocal, razor sharp in-your-face up and coming top rated defensive coordinator destined for sure stardom as a head coach. The reality of not having your pick of the finest thoroughbred players in the nation eventually took it's tool on Mike and reality set in, in the desert. Mike knew early on what the huge gap was between the "haves (Oklahoma) and the have nots (Arizona)" really meant. Winning in Tucson is harder than hell and Mike became humbled beyond his wildest dreams.

Wow what an eight year run he had. So many highs, and so many lows.

In the end Mike was an enigma, a stranger to the greater Tucson area and a stranger to Arizona Stadium in a esoteric way. At times I felt as if Mike would not allow himself to breach the glass ceiling of Arizona football prominence.

His heart appeared to always be someplace else and you could see the pain of those thoughts in his face. The comfort level was never there to encapsulate the Wildcat family IMHO.

7. Rich Rodriquez, we have come full circle with the hire of RR. The story is just now unfolding. It is just being written. As the standard premise is laid out it is the same as has been written about for the last 40+ years. The UofA is still trying to hire the proverbial savior and desperately trying reach the holy grayle of college football.

Will the football gods bless the bewildered desert school. Only time will tell, but there is one thing for sure. It will take time to find the results of that yet unknown journey.

Embrace the journey folks and embrace Rich Rod because it's our journey and Rich Rod is our guy at this moment in the annals of Arizona football.

[EastCoastCat]

Originally Posted by Gladiator Cat

Hey Chief,

I've been as guilty as anyone in getting a bit overly optimistic in the past. As I've gotten older all the BS and koolaid beverages that I used to consume in mass quantities just collects dust now.

I'm a reality based prognosticator with little patients for bravado and testosterone lased beliefs.....the pom pom, firecrackers and group think is best left to the more deranged element of our fan base.

I have no illusions whatsoever that RR & company will turn this thing around fast. Quite the contrary, I think it will take a good 4 year's to reach a very good 9 win season and achieve a bigger bowl type game.

As for me, the Rose Bowl BS hype can be fed to someone else because I'm not interested in meaningless BS or useless dialog on the subject matter. If and when it appears the UofA has assembled a team good enough to make the RB we won't need to convince ourselves or anyone else of that fact, the on-field play will tell the story.

So where are we now, call it the feedback loop theory or the come full circle dichotomy.

My love for the Cats started back in the Jim Young era.

1. Jim Young, excellent coach and a winner before leaving for Purdue.
-- Much love for Jim Young.

2. Tony Mason, a used car salesman from the get-go and a low level hire from Cincinnati. Very nice man, but way out of his league. Resulted in NCAA sanctions and penalties. Tony RIP.

3. Larry Smith, somewhat unknown from Tulane but a winner and continued his winning way's at Arizona. Won many huge games and also lost a lot as well. All in all, a great man and coach that took a chance on USC stardom that never materialized.
-- Larry was hated at first when leaving for USC but later returned to Tucson to live out his days in the Old Pueblo. I later understood his desire to reach the pinnacle of coaching as that is mans destiny to reach for the stars. I gained a new respect for him as time went on. He died being remembered as a great Arizona Wildcat coach as he should have been. Larry RIP.

4. Dick Tomey, coach Tomey is the most loved football coach at the UofA of all time in the modern era and I don't think it's even close. Coach Tomey had us so close to the grand prize so many time's that it is almost is too painful to realize how close we came. His 12-1 record and final AP raking of # 4 nationally stands as our greatest achievement to date.

-- In the end, at the twilight of his grand career here at the UofA it was so painful to see him step aside but he had lost his magic touch for whatever reason and recruiting had taken a huge slide to the downside. As much as we all loved the man and his contributions to the school, it was time for a change.

-- Coach Tomey is still the benchmark of integrity, honesty, leadership and mentorship.

5. John Machovic, on paper a very solid hire but everything else after that was pure hell. In reality a magnificent boondoggle of epic proportions. In all fairness, no one could have seen how bad of a hire Wackovic was.

-- Jim Livengood did not deserve what happened to him as a result of that cluster**** of a hire. But life is what it is and Jim eventually took the hit, and we moved on.

6. Mike Stoops, the young defensive savant from the mighty Oklahoma Sooners. Mike was a brash, vocal, razor sharp in-your-face up and coming top rated defensive coordinator destined for sure stardom as a head coach. The reality of not having your pick of the finest thoroughbred players in the nation eventually took it's tool on Mike and reality set in, in the desert. Mike knew early on what the huge gap was between the "haves (Oklahoma) and the have nots (Arizona)" really meant. Winning in Tucson is harder than hell and Mike became humbled beyond his wildest dreams.

Wow what an eight year run he had. So many highs, and so many lows.

In the end Mike was an enigma, a stranger to the greater Tucson area and a stranger to Arizona Stadium in a esoteric way. At times I felt as if Mike would not allow himself to breach the glass ceiling of Arizona football prominence.

His heart appeared to always be someplace else and you could see the pain of those thoughts in his face. The comfort level was never there to encapsulate the Wildcat family IMHO.

7. Rich Rodriquez, we have come full circle with the hire of RR. The story is just now unfolding. It is just being written. As the standard premise is laid out it is the same as has been written about for the last 40+ years. The UofA is still trying to hire the proverbial savior and desperately trying reach the holy grayle of college football.

Will the football gods bless the bewildered desert school. Only time will tell, but there is one thing for sure. It will take time to find the results of that yet unknown journey.

Embrace the journey folks and embrace Rich Rod because it's our journey and Rich Rod is our guy at this moment in the annals of Arizona football.

Well done sir. I've been around since point #2.
Interesting take on Larry Smith as I thought he was going to take us to the promised land but he socked us in the gut by leaving for the fame and fortune at USC. It was like the woman you love leaving you for a better looking/more successful man. But he did return to Tucson and I think in his heart he regretted leaving UofA.
Always rooted for Tomey - just a class act and you could tell the players loved playing for him.

[Winger]

Originally Posted by AZ2ATX

The fact that we beat ASU after that Colorado game speaks wonders for how DOA that program was.

Don't think so.

We had just about zero talent on the offensive and defensive lines all last season.

I was at the CU game, and when I tell you it was blowing 50 mph that day, it was blowing 50 mph that day. I didnt see the game on tape but I am certain that didnt come through. I spent some time on the field and it was the hardest most swirlingist wind I have ever seen at a football game.

What that meant is that you had to run the ball on offense to be successful as it was just about impossible to consistently complete passes, especially down field.

Since we had no defensive line (91st against the run out of 120 teams), and since CU isn't La Lafayette (meaning they are stocked with BCS conference talent, bottom tier BCS conference talent, but BCS conference talent none the less), the Buffs were able to put up 273 yds of their 500 on the ground at a 6.1 ypc clip while chewing up 33 minutes of clock and putting the ball in the end zone on the ground 4 times.

Since we also had no offensive line, we only amassed 60 yards running at a 2.6 ypc clip.

And since CU knew we couldn't run and would pass every down b/c we were down they could load up all day (you could hear their D coaches on the sideline at various times yelling out our pass calls before the ball was snapped) on pass D. Mix in a 50 mph wind and Foles has his worst game ever going 35-53 for 352 1 TD and 3 INT.

And you get what we got here last night, a below average Arizona team loses to a slightly further below average CU team.

Driving to that game struggling to keep the car on the road in the wind I knew we were going to lose.